MINUTES
STATE
OF
The Henderson County Board of
Commissioners met for a special called meeting at 6:00 p.m. in the
Commissioners' Conference Room of the
Those present
were: Chairman
Absent was: Commissioner
Shannon Baldwin.
QUASI-JUDICIAL PROCEEDING
Chairman Hawkins called the
meeting to order.
Chairman Hawkins – “I make the motion to go into public
hearing. All those in favor of the motion say aye.”
In unison – “Aye.”
Chairman
Hawkins – “Ladies and Gentlemen, we are here today for the hearing of a
quasi-judicial proceeding on the following application: Special Use Permit
Application #SU-04-01 submitted by Todd Leoni, Applicant on behalf of Camp
Riley, Inc., for a special use permit for a planned unit development to be
known as Leoni’s Mountain Lake Properties.
I want to remind everyone
that the proceedings will be conducted under the Henderson County Board of
Commissioners Rules of Procedure for Quasi-judicial Proceedings. Unless otherwise decided by the Board, only
persons made a party to the proceeding will be allowed to participate as a
party in today’s continuation of the hearing.
Those people include Karen Smith, Planning Director, Todd Leoni and Camp
Riley, Inc., Applicant, and such other persons allowed to become parties by
this Board. Only persons who can demonstrate
that they will be affected by the outcome of the decision are allowed to
participate in the proceed, proceedings as parties.
Are there any Board members
who feel that they cannot sit as an impartial decision-maker in today’s
proceedings? And Commissioner Baldwin’s not here yet uh, uh, if he is not here
by the time we start taking the evidence then uh, uh, he, he won’t participate
in proceedings either but we enough of a quorum here but we might need to uh,
uh, uh, ask the uh, applicant if they want us to proceed uh, if that be the
case Russ.”
Russ Burrell – “Yeah I think
so.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Uh since
we don’t have a full Board.”
Todd Leoni – “Yes.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Are there
any Board members who have received any information concerning the
application? If so, please indicate what
information you have received so that it can become part of the record for
today. Anybody received any information other than what we’ve been given? Okay.
Give you just a brief overview of, of how the proceedings are conducted. All
persons who speak and participate, including any witnesses that will be called,
will be placed under oath. The Board
will ask the Applicant or the Applicant’s attorney what evidence the Applicant
wishes to present in support of the request.
After the Applicant is finished, anyone else who has expressed a desire
to be a party and who the Board has recognized as a party would then be allowed
to present their evidence. All parties would
be given an opportunity to ask questions of all witnesses testifying in this
proceeding. The Board will be given an
opportunity to ask questions also. After the evidence is presented the Board
will discuss the issue raised and will make a decision. The Board’s decision uh, should be made
within 30 days of the close of the hearing, and must be made in writing within
45 days of the hearing. As I stated, the Board acknowledges the following
persons as parties. As I call your name,
please answer so that we will know you are present. Karen Smith, Planning Director.”
Karen Smith – “Here.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Um, the
Henderson County planning staff? I guess that’s just it. Todd Leoni.”
Todd Leoni – “Yes sir.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Uh and
Camp Riley, Inc., is that?”
Russ Burrell – “That’s Mr.
Leoni.”
Chairman Hawkins – “All, all
together? Okay. Uh, applicant. Are there
any other persons present who can demonstrate that they will be affected by the
outcome of this proceedings and who wish to be party to this proceedings? Okay,
if, if what ya’ll would do is just one at a time if you’d take the stand and tell
the Board why you should be a party to the proceedings uh, the Board will make
a decision whether or not to make you a party to the proceedings. And after
we’ve, get that all figured out then we’ll take um, uh, we’ll take whatever
time we need for everybody to get sworn in even if we have to do it in shifts
and then we’ll start actually hearing the evidence. So those that raised your
hand that thought you were, uh, would like to be a part of the proceedings if
one at a time you would come up and address the Board.”
Bill Harper – “I’m Bill
Harper Jr. I’ve lived on
Chairman Hawkins – “Where,
where is your residence in relation to the um, uh, the project uh Mr.
Harper?”
Bill Harper – “It’d be kinda
diagonally across the lake from it. I can, on my property I can see the project
from my house.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Karen, do
you have that on the map that you have up there or is that.”
Karen Smith – “I don’t think
so, I think that’s in the City’s jurisdiction…”
Chairman Hawkins – “Let me
ask, on that map that you got is the little circle out there the lake?”
Anthony Prinz – “Yes sir,
this is the lake right here.”
Chairman Hawkins – “That’s
the lake right there? Okay.”
Bill Harper – “If you look
straight up on that thing I’d be right on that point”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.”
Bill Harper – “right directly
across from it.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Then you’re, you’re pretty much adjacent to it then. Does the Board have any
problems with Mr. Harper being a party? Okay we’ll take you as a party Mr.
Harper and we’ll swear you in in just a minute. Any one else? Yes mam.”
Marsha Hammel – “I’m Marsha
Hammel and my house is on the corner of Kanuga Road and Bonner Street and
because I’m on Bonner Street I feel that I have an interest in the project.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay how,
how far back is that uh.”
Marsha Hammel – “Right on, I
face
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. So
you’re about a, a lot or two down from the uh, actual project.
Marsha Hammel – “Exactly.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Uh,
anybody uh, have any uh, any problem with uh, uh Marsha being a party to, to
the hearing from that position? Okay. We’ll accept you and we’ll get you sworn
in in a minute.”
Brenda Coats – “Brenda Coats.
I adjoin the property to the south east. No it’s, it’s on the lake, on
Anthony Prinz – “This one?”
Brenda Coats – “Correct.”
Chairman Hawkins – “There?
Okay, anybody have any, did everybody see where her property was located?
Anybody have a problem with her being a party? Okay we’ll accept you as a party
and swear you in in a minute.”
Dianne Green – “I’m Dianne
Green and I’m at 419 Bonner. And that’s right at the corner there, or right
beside it. Right there.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay
anybody have a problem with Mrs. uh, Green being a party? Okay we’ll accept you
as a party then. Any, any other persons wish to be a party to the uh,
deliberations?”
Judith Sloan – “Um, I’m
Judith Sloan. I own um, lots 8, 9 and 10 in the Osceola Subdivision and I’m
pretty much directly across from um, the
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Anybody have a problem with uh, Judith being a party? Okay we’ll take you as a
party also Mrs. Sloan.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. I’m
sorry, what was your first name?”
Georgina Holmes – “
Chairman Hawkins – “
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay
anybody have a problem with uh, Mrs. Holmes being a party? Okay we’ll take you
as a party Mrs. Holmes and swear you in in a minute.”
Kathy Gallagher – “I’m Kathy
Gallagher. I’m here as an agent for Larry and Becky Powell. They live at the
corner of
Russ Burrell – “If you choose
she can be a party, I don’t think she can be a party for someone else. I’m
saying I don’t think you can be a party for someone else but you can be a party
for yourself. You said you, your family owns property. If the Board chooses to,
you can be a party for yourself but I don’t think for someone else.”
Kathy Gallagher – “Okay, I
don’t actually own the property I’m, I’m just here on their behalf.”
Chairman Hawkins – “I, I.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Does
she have anything in writing, evidence, uh, that she has authority to act for
them?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Where,
where do you live Mrs. uh, Gallagher?”
Kathy Gallagher – “I myself
live at Eas, by East High.”
Chairman Hawkins – “You’re,
you’re some, somewhere else?”
Kathy Gallagher – “Um hum.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
What, what’s the Board’s pleasure?”
Commissioner Messer – “Are
those family you represent, are they kin?”
Kathy Gallagher – “Yes they
are.”
Commissioner Messer – “In,
in, in what manner.”
Kathy Gallagher – “My husband
is a, is a Gallagher. My husband was a Gallagher. Um, I’m Kathy Gallagher my,
he’s my nephew. My husband has passed away.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Uh, Mr.
Burrell what, what is your opinion for the Board?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay I,
I, I, I guess my feeling is that uh, that you probably don’t qualify to be a
party not owning the land or.”
Kathy Gallagher – “Okay.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Knowing,
but I, I. I’ll leave that to the discretion of the Board. Bill?”
Commissioner Young – “I
started to say she…”
Several people speaking at
once.
Kathy Gallagher – “Okay.”
Orion Goodman – “I’m Orion
Goodman, I’m Judy Sloan’s son. Um, am I, like, too young to speak or, could I
speak?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Where,
where do you live? Or do you live adjacent to the property?”
Orion Goodman – “Um, I’m Judy
Sloan’s son live at
Chairman Hawkins – “Oh,
Judith Sloan’s daughter. Uh, we’ll probably just have uh, Ms. Sloan call you as
a witness. I, I think is probably the way to do that. Uh, understand that we’re
dealing in a, uh, quasi-judicial manner and so what you’d normally, the way
you’d normally conduct business at the County Commissioner business is a little
bit different since uh, uh, since we’re in a, a more of a legal proceeding.
So,um, uh, not, not, not a totally normal thing. So, so we, we do have some
bounds uh, from legal issues that we have to go by. Uh, is there any, anyone
else that wants to be parties? That can demonstrate your. Yes mam.”
June Reese – “I’m June Reese.
The first two villas are right across from my property.”
Chairman Hawkins – “And, and
where, would you point that out.”
June Reese – “I’m at
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.”
June Reese – Uh, Kathy do you
see that?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Anybody have a problem with her being a, wit, uh, party? Okay we’ll take you as
a party and swear you in in just a minute.”
June Reese – “Thank you.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Um.”
Commissioner Moyer – “There’s
somebody else Grady.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Yes mam.”
Polly Davis – “I’m Polly
Davis. I live at the corner of Bonner and Kanuga.”
Anthony Prinz – “Is it here?
Is it that part?”
Polly Davis – “Yes.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay,
anybody have a problem with that on the entrance? Okay we’ll take you as a
party, uh. Any, anyone else wants, that wishes to be a party.”
Jerry Jones – “I’m Jerry
Jones I live at
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Anybody have a problem with him being a party? Okay we’ll take you as a party.
Any, anybody else wish to be a party?”
Dianne Simpson – “I’m Dianne
Simpson and I live on Old, well I have lots on Old Oklahoma, they’re 13 and 14.
Want me come… ”
Karen Smith – “Sure.”
Anthony Prinz – “Yes, if you
can.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Any, anybody have a problem with uh, Ms. Simpson being a party? Okay we’ll take
you as a party Ms. Simpson. Any, anyone else wish to be a party? Okay.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Grady?
I, I think we gotta to give the applicant a chance to object.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Yeah.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Is that
on your uh, listings?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. I
don’t, is uh, I, I guess uh, and of course we already identified the
applicants. Is, do, and I’ll inquire at this point if they have any uh,
objections to the uh, parties that we’ve identified?”
Karen Smith – “Mr. Chairman I
don’t have an objection but I was gonna see if I could get somebody to give up
a packet cause I’m, I’m one short.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Looking
right at you Justin. You can share mine.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Is that,
is that sufficient? Okay and the uh, see the uh, the lady that uh wanted, Mrs.
Goodman wanted to be a witness uh, I think that uh, you’ll be able just to have
one of the parties call you as a witness at some point.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Yeah,
we’ll and uh, so uh, let’s see if I got all those in there. Okay do any, any
other parties uh, or any of the parties that have witnesses they’re gonna call
that haven’t been identified? Okay, now comes the hard part, we’ve gotta swear
everybody in. So uh, if you would just uh, and Amy might just kinda do that in
a couple of shifts over there. Um, uh, if, I don’t know how many we’ve got
here. Maybe about five or six of you come up we’ll uh, we’ll get you sworn in
and then everybody else can get sworn in after they’re sworn in.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Russ,
does the record show the applicant didn’t object to any of the witnesses?”
Chairman Hawkins – “I already
asked.”
Several people talking.
Chairman Hawkins – “He, he
shook, he shook his head.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Yeah
but, okay but getting that on the record is the uh. As long as Russ is saying
he shook his head that’s fine.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay af,
after you get signed up well then we’ll get everybody sworn in and then we’ll
be ready to start.”
In unison – “I do.”
Several people talking.
In unison – “Yes.”
Several people talking.
In unison – “I do.”
Chairman
Hawkins – “Any, any parties or witnesses that didn’t get sworn?”
Chairman
Hawkins – “Uh, you need to swear the witness if somebody’s gonna call them.”
Commissioner
Young – “And the little girl.”
Commissioner
Moyer – “Little boy.”
Commissioner
Young – “Little boy.”
Chairman
Hawkins – “Is, is that a problem age wise for.”
Commissioner
Moyer – “Wait a minute, you got one more Amy. Amy, you got one more.”
Several people talking.
Orion
Goodman – “Orion. Like the constellation.”
Orion
Goodman – “Um hum.”
In unison – “Yes.”
(Witnesses sworn were: Kathy
Gallagher, Orion Goodman and Luther Smith)
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Okay, I think, I think we’ve got everybody and let the record show that uh, Mr.
Leoni had no objection to our, our parties uh, and witnesses. Okay, before we
begin the proceedings I need to inquire of the uh, applicant what their
preference is since we don’t have a full Board and I do that because uh, it can
affect how, how your voting may go. Uh, and so I, I don’t know if you wanna
talk with uh, uh, uh.”
Todd Leoni – “No I’m fine,
I’m fine with what you have.”
Chairman Hawkins – “You’re,
you, you wanna proceed with uh, less than a full Board?”
Todd Leoni – “Yes.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. If
you’ll uh, have the record show that then also. Okay at that case then we’ll
uh, uh, I assume Mr. Baldwin’s not gonna be able to make it this evening and uh
we’ll go ahead and start uh, we’ll begin the proceedings with the uh, Staff
overview. Uh, Mrs. Smith, uh, you or a member of your staff wanna give us your
overview.”
Karen Smith – “I’m going to
sir.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Alright.”
Karen Smith – “Um, everybody
has the material that I’m gonna go over in the packet. Um, that was handed out
this evening and the Board members of course had it ahead of time. Uh, just to
get it in the record I do want to enter that packet as evidence later when it’s
my turn but this’ll be um, just to give you a little bit more background. As
Mr. Hawkins said uh, the Board of Commissioners scheduled the hearing for this
evening on the Special Use Permit Application #SU-04-01 and it is for a
proposed Planned Unit Development. And that uh, Planned Unit Development is
known as Leoni’s Mountain Lake Estates. Again as uh, Chairman Hawkins said Camp
Riley Inc. is the property owner and Mr. Todd Leoni is the applicant and
together in this packet I’ve referred to them jointly as the developer. Um,
actually through uh, Luther Smith, um, Mr. Leoni submitted the application to
the Board of Commissioners and the Planning Department back on September 1,
2004. And a copy of that application as submitted is attached, um, it is
Attachment #1. Planned Unit Development is proposed for approximately 12 acres
of property. Um, you have a vicinity map that’s on the television screen. It’s
also Attachment #2 in your packet. Uh, it’s known by parcel identification
number 00-9567-29-4058-55 and I’ll refer to that as the subject property. It is
located across from
In accordance with the
Henderson County Zoning Ordinance um, Luther Smith and Associates held a
pre-application conference with the Planning Board back in um, August, it was
August 17, 2004. And when the application of course came in on September 1,
2004 we brought it to you to refer back to the Planning Board. All this is by
the process outlined in the zoning ordinance. Planning Board looked at it at
it’s September 21, 2004 meeting. And they reviewed the application, they
reviewed staff comments which you have um, in Attachment #5 and I’ll refer back
to that later on in the meeting. Um, they had comments that had come in from
other agencies, that’s Attachment #6 in everybody’s packets. And any additional
information that had been presented by Mr. Smith, the developer’s agent. Uh,
after considering all this information the Planning Board voted 6-1 to send the
Commissioners a favorable recommendation on this special use permit application
subject to certain conditions being satisfied. And I reference Attachment #7
which is a draft set of the minutes from the Henderson County Planning Board
meeting of September 21, 2004. Um, so that you could get uh, some idea of um,
Planning Board’s discussion on that matter. Because the proposed Planned Unit
Development involves the division of the land into lots that will be for sale
the developer had to also submit an application for subdivision review under
the Henderson County Subdivision Ordinance. And I, there’s an error in your
packet. The application number for the subdivision should be 2004-M15. That’s
on page two, instead of 2005. Planning Board reviewed the subdivision
application and the Planned Unit Development application at the same time and
at the same meeting. Uh, and they also voted 6-1 to conditionally approve the
subdivision application. And one of the conditions that’s most significant is
that the developer obtain special use permit approval from the Board of
Commissioners. Um, you are not an approval authority for subdivisions,
therefore you do not have to make, take action specifically on the subdivision
application.
Um, let’s see, okay on
October 7th, um, 2004, Mr. Smith uh, submitted a revised master and
preliminary development plan for the project to the Planning Department. This
is part due to conditions imposed by the Planning Board. Uh, as a result of the
subdivision application he also submitted some other materials and I’ve
included those in Attachment #8 and for the purposes of this hearing we’re
gonna use those plans. It’s a, re, a master plan and a development plan and
there is also a boundary survey that was included with the original application
materials that if we need to reference that we can. I’ve got large maps of all
three here available…”
Chairman Hawkins – “Karen
excuse me did, did you say that Attachment #8 responded to the Planning Board’s
uh, inquiries off of uh, Attachment #5? Or just the subdivision aspect of it?”
Karen Smith – “It, it’s,
it’s, really to both. It, it does some of both but the terms master plan and
preliminary development plan are subdivision terms. And so um, they had to show
some items under the subdivision ordinance that may or may not be required
under the zoning ordinance. Um, okay, so those will be the plans we’ll be
looking at. Um, this is probably more for the benefit of the, the folks that
are here rather than the Board, you’ve been through this before but. In
accordance with Sections 200-56D and 200-70A(2) of the Zoning Ordinance, the
Board of Commissioners has to make findings of fact regarding the compliance of
the special use permit application with the Zoning Ordinance and the Board may
impose conditions on the permit to assure that the proposed use will meet the
Ordinance requirements. As I stated earlier, uh, there are general site
standards that apply to all special uses in Section 200-56D. If a general site
standard cannot be met and based on evidence provided during the hearing the
Board finds that imposing a condition or conditions um, will allow general site
standards to be met then the Board may impose those conditions. The applicant
does not bear the burden of demonstrating that all the general site standards
have been met. Section 200-70A(6) of the Zoning Ordinance requires that the Board
also make findings suit, to demonstrate that the special use permit application
complies with specific requirements for the use. Two, Section 200-33 is the
planned unit development section of the Zoning Ordinance and it lays out all of
the application requirements, procedures, and standards that do apply to um,
planned unit developments specifically. And then there’s another Section
200-70A(6) that requires that the Board find that provisions have been made for
um, items such as ingress, egress, parking and loading, utilities, buffering,
playgrounds, open space, yards, access ways and pedestrian ways as well as
building and structure location size and use. A lot of those issues, as you’ll
see as we go through the hearing, are addressed through other means.
For the record I wanted to
review uh, the public hearing notification that occurred for the hearing. Um,
it has been advertised in accordance with the zoning ordinance and the Board of
Commissioners Rules of Procedure for Quasi-Judicial Proceedings. Planning
Department had notices of the hearing published as legal ads in the Times-News
on October 23rd and October 30th, 2004. On October 22,
2004 the Planning Department sent notices that, of the hearing via
certified mail to the developer and to the owners of property adjacent to and
across the street from the subject property. And I learned a few minutes ago
actually within a 100 foot uh, buffer. Um, I probably knew that before I didn’t
realize it when I wrote this.
On October 22nd,
uh, 2004, we also posted notices of the hearing on the subject property and you
have copies of the ads um, in Attachment #9. And uh, finally you have a, a good
bit of material in your packet. Um, I tried to get it to you a little bit ahead
of time so you could peruse it. Um, and I will review during my evidence um, a
little bit more about the Planning Board’s recommendations and, and how um, the
revised application materials and such may have um, satisfied some of the
requirements. Thank you.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any
questions for Mrs. Smith at this point?”
Karen Smith – “Do you need
any of these big maps up at this point?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Um, I, I
don’t right now.”
Karen Smith – “Okay.
Everybody has a copy but just in case.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.”
Karen Smith – “Okay. Thank
you.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. Um,
okay we’re ready for the applicant’s uh, evidence. Are you gonna present that
or is Mr. Smith gonna do it?”
Todd Leoni – “Mr. Smith.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Luther?”
Luther Smith – “Mr. Chairman,
Commissioners, my name is Luther Smith. I’m a planner and landscape architect
here in, with offices in
The street running through
the property will be private. It’s approximately 1,200 feet in length. It runs
from
Uh, excuse me. Water will be
by the City of
At this point in time we
currently have the following approvals in place. From NCDOT we have driveway
permits for both, both of the two entrances on the property, or on the proposed
road. From the City of
Excuse me, uh, we do have two
types of uh, homes uh, proposed in the project. All of the homes are single
family homes but we have what we’re terming cottages and villas. The cottage
lots are the lots that faces directly onto either
Uh, traffic is always an
issue when you start talking about new development in an area. Uh, any kind of
development whether it’s one house or 20 homes is gonna add, add to traffic. Uh
we feel that we, since the development that is being proposed is not
multi-family, it’s not apartments where you may end up with, you know, a number
of different people kinda a same apartment, that the traffic um, that will be
added to the neighborhood is equal to any kind of single family residential
development that occurs there.
Uh, other than that I’ll be
happy to ans, answer any question uh, that you may have uh, about the, the
project in general, the layout of it, or any of the uh, other parties have.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Luther I,
I just wanted to ask you a couple questions. Uh, you mention that the City of
Luther Smith – “No, the City
has recommended we have one all the way up in the development as well. Fire,
Fire Chief wants one down at the front so to my understanding John Jeeter has
included both of those on the plans that were submitted. Because the City, City
has uh, certain rules that they want ‘em a certain distance but the Fire Chief
was concerned at one near the entrance. So there is one just down
Chairman Hawkins – “So, so
your plans actually anticipate two fire hydrants versus one?”
Luther Smith – “That, that’s
my understanding. The plans that were submitted.”
Chairman Hawkins – “On the
uh, on the uh septic, uh, I, I’m lookin’ over the uh notes from the
Environmental Health uh, uh, and, uh, the first one, it talks about pits will
be required. Is that just a sep, is he talking about a septic tank or what,
what is the pits?”
Luther Smith – “I’m not sure.
Um, well the process is each home will have it’s own septic tank. Alright, and
what, what the septic fields will be handling is again just like the septic
field at your house. Will just be taking the effluent from the tank to the
septic field. In the evaluation process the soil scientist is digging large
pits cause he has to categorize the soils to determine the, the you know, the
capability of, of can it take the effluent and so forth and I, I assume, I read
that, I’m sorry but I don’t remember what all they had on there.”
Chairman Hawkins – “I wasn’t
sure what pits were unless it was a, a septic tank on, on each lot but that
being the case the septic tank on the lots not, I mean it’s just a holding area
for septic it’s not uh, treating any septic.”
Luther Smith – “No, no more
so than your, your house is. I mean your septic tank takes out the primary
solids and so forth, about 98% or whatever. And then the, the effluent goes out
of your septic tank at your house into a drain field. We have exactly the same
system it’s just that instead of the drain field being right in the back yard
the drain field is gonna be up the street and there’ll be several drain fields
together. Where’s?”
Chairman Hawkins – “The very,
very first item.”
Luther Smith – “I’m not sure
what pits will be required.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay, I
don’t feel so bad not knowing what it is then.”
Luther Smith – “I’m sorry.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Um, let
me ask you another question. I, I would assume. ”
Luther Smith – “Unless
they’re talking about the evaluation of the soil that’s uh.”
Chairman Hawkins – “I, I
would assume that that uh, is either uh, is some type soil evaluation or the,
he was talking about the septic tank. Um, as you mentioned the uh, now the
application instead of the local Health Department approving it I guess has to
go to DENR for approval”
Luther Smith – “Yes sir it goes”
Chairman Hawkins – “of this
system?”
Luther Smith – “to Black
Mountain Environmental Health Section or something like that.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Um, he
indicated in uh, again in his comments that that permitting process could
require as much as a year or more of time and I, I looked at that and I looked
back at your road permitting and uh, it said that uh, that you had to finish
your uh, your road within uh, the policy uh, uh, laid out by DOT. I wondered
how those two compared as far as time frame. Do you know? I guess what I’m
thinking is that while you’re waiting for your uh, DENR permit your permit’ll
expire.”
Luther Smith – “Well, I, the,
the comment that, that was in that from the Health Department kinda surprised
me when they said it’ll take up to a year. We’ve done a number of these in
developments throughout the western part of the state and um, I really can’t
think of one that’s taken more than about three to four months to get through
their process. So I’m, I’m, you know I’m not uh...”
Chairman Hawkins – “He said
there were a few.”
Luther Smith – “…in at that
point.”
Chairman Hawkins – “He said
there were a few examples in
Luther Smith – “Uh, we’ve
done ‘em outside, there’s also in
Chairman Hawkins – “Group
septic.”
Luther Smith – “Uh, that’s
probably the, the largest example here in
Chairman Hawkins – “Will you
require uh, pumps, uh, to, to move that uh down.”
Luther Smith – “There may,
some of ‘em, some of the units may require pumping systems. And that’s, that’s
something again that the uh, between the engineer and the soil scientist
they’ll be working out. Uh, we tried to, uh, do the general design of the lots
so that we took gravity to those fields as much as possible but I think uh,
some of the cottage lots down along uh, South Lakeshore Drive will have to be
pumped back up to a point where they can then gravity down into the field
system.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Do you
know if that’ll be included in their DENR permitting? Do they address that?”
Luther Smith – “Yeah all, all
of that...”
Chairman Hawkins – “Backup
whatever.”
Luther Smith – “…my
understanding all that is part of their, their whole process. Now they don’t
require the same, you said backup, they don’t necessarily require the same
backup generators and so forth on small uh, where there’s actually sump pump
type systems that they do on a large lift station. Uh, but it is, that, that
whole design is part of the package that goes to them for approval.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Do you
uh, do you have the same repair area like you do on your house?”
Luther Smith – “That’s
correct.”
Chairman Hawkins – “And is
that amount of acreage enough to have the standard repair area a l, a system
that size or?”
Luther Smith – “Yeah ba,
based on the preliminary studies that the soil scientist has made, he’s not
completed all of his finals though. He indicated the area we have available is
more than enough for the regular system plus the repair area.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. Any
Board members have any questions for Mr. Smith? Any of the parties have a
question for Mr. Smith on the information he’s presented? You’ll, you’ll have a
chance in a minute to present your evidence but if you have a question on just
what he’s presented then do you want to ask him? Yes mam would you come up and
take the mic and uh.”
Judith
Sloan - “I have, I have several questions um, about the septic system.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.”
Judith Sloan – “Um.”
Chairman Hawkins – “I’m
sorry, just a minute mam.”
Judith Sloan – “Oh, my name’s
Judith Sloan, 422 Bonner Street. I have several questions about the septic
system just cause we hate to have a septic problem in our neighborhood. Um, if
there’s what, 26 homes there, then that would be about what eight houses per
each, um, group septic system? Is that right? You have three group septic
systems marked out on the plat so.”
Luther Smith – “We have three
areas of soil that are suitable to put the septic systems in. That doesn’t
necessarily mean that they will be broken up in groups of eight nor that a
group system, you know an individual system is maybe more economical to do it
large enough just for three homes. So we have one here for three homes, one
here for three homes they’re not.”
Judith Sloan – “Well okay if
you just have them for three homes and you have three of them marked on the
plat and you have 26 homes I’m just trying to see who’s responsible for these
things. Who, what homes are draining into it, how many, I’m not really um,
knowledgeable about these things.”
Luther Smith – “Well yeah I,
I cannot, since I’m not designing the system, our engineer and the soil
scientist is, I cannot tell you how many homes will be in any given field area.
In terms of responsibility it becomes the responsibility, the road, all of the
common property and the common septic field areas become the responsibility of
the homeowners association to maintain and you know take care of. The
individual homeowner will be responsible for his septic tank.”
Judith Sloan – “Okay now in
the um, that brings me to, this is a question I have about the maintenance of
this cause if, if these things are built and left to a homeowners association
it’s different than say Kenmure which is a country club and has administration.
So, a homeowners association is just among the home owners, there’s no
administration to oversee this. The only thing I see in this is that the home
owners would be required to pay $50.00 a month to um, the homeowners
association and I’m just wondering if these things have pumps and um, something
goes wrong and it costs tens of thousands of dollars to fix them, who is going
to make sure the homeowners association fixes them. I mean where’s the
liability on this. Who’s just gonna take care of this? I’m just concerned that
um, who, who will take care of it in the event that they break down? Can you
see where I’m that?”
Luther Smith – “Yeah, I, I
understand what you’re saying. The homeowners association, you know, all of the
people who live in the development are members of it. It does have a Board of
Directors, they are responsible for managing the property, keeping the grass
mowed, taking care of the road, those sort of things. Whatever assessments, as
a collective group they agree to annually is up to them. They know what the
maintenance cost is gonna be. And yet, in the initial document it may say
they’re gonna do $50.00 a month.”
Judith Sloan – “Right.”
Luther Smith – “Because in
the document you have to set a minimum of what your, what the fee is gonna be
when somebody moves in so you can’t, excuse me, so you can’t surprise them with
oh, you know, your fee’s gonna be $200.00. Beyond that $50.00 a month the
decision to increase that fee is the responsibility of the homeowners in the
operation of the homeowners association.”
Judith Sloan – “I, I, I uh, I
understand what you’re saying. But what I’m saying is if you have three things
and they’re gonna have pumps and you’re gonna create this and then go away and
leave it to these people to fix if it goes wrong what guarantee is it that they
can actually um, afford to fix it?”
Luther Smith – “Uh, I don’t
know. That’s a question I can’t really, I can’t really answer. Uh.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Lu,
Luther are there gonna be uh, bylaws for the homeowners?”
Luther Smith – “Yes, yes and
the documents”
Chairman Hawkins – “Would
that.”
Luther Smith – “have been
turned into the County. So there are bylaws for the Association that set it up.
Uh, many homeowners associations, as you are probably well aware, contract with
groups like IPM and some of the other management groups to operate all of that
and so forth. It would be solely at the discretion of these homeowners exactly
how would really handle that. Uh, but in terms of road maintenance, maintenance
of any of the common properties and the septic, uh, restrictive covenants set
out that it is the responsibility of the homeowners through the association to
maintain it and bear the cost.”
Judith Sloan – “Is, is there
a way to make that lan.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Well I, I
think maybe what you’re looking for.”
Judith Sloan – “Do you see
what, do you understand what I’m.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Cause I
looked for it also. I didn’t see any of the bylaws in our packet. We had a
declaration of restrictions or the covenants and I, I don’t know that the, the
bylaws, at least was in what I got. I don’t know if anybody else got.”
Luther Smith – “You might
wanna address that with the landowner.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.”
Judith Sloan – “Yeah, I mean
I, that just, you know, it’s a concern that I have given that it’s a unique
kind of septic system.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Mr. Leoni
you wanna address the uh, uh.”
Todd Leoni – “Yes sir. “
Chairman Hawkins – “That
responsibility.”
Todd Leoni – “Um, the bylaws
are in there. They’re, it’s actually the long paper and it’s a few pages. Um,
they should be in your packet are they not?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Well.”
Todd Leoni – “It’s the 8 ½ by
14, the one that’s hanging out.”
Chairman Hawkins – “That says
Declaration Restrictions.”
Todd Leoni – “Right.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Is that
the home owners bylaws?”
Todd Leoni – “Yes sir.”
Chairman Hawkins – “It
doesn’t deal with how to elect the President. It, of course it.”
Todd Leoni – “No, I.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Has to be
recorded in Register of Deeds but mostly your, your covenants and your
restrictions not…”
Todd Leoni – “Right these are
my, well that’s, these are my covenants and restrictions yes. The, the bylaws, I mean I haven’t created anything yet
because I’m waiting on your approval. Um, you know, and I am certainly going to
um.”
Chairman Hawkins – “So you
don’t have any homeowners bylaws at this point. Just the.”
Todd Leoni – “No not, not yet.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Basically
the restrictive covenants that you’ve presented here.”
Todd Leoni – “Right I, that’s
right.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any, any
other questions for this witness? Yes sir. Did you have a question?”
Bill Harper – “Yeah.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Would you
take the mic and identify yourself and, and give us your question and Mr. Smith
will.”
Bill Harper – “I’m Bill
Harper, Bill Harper Jr. Live on
Luther Smith – “No sir. It is
no different than the septic system that you have, I assume you have at your
house, which comes out of the house, it goes into a two chambered septic tank.
Solids come out of it but flu, effluent goes to a distribution box and puts it
in a regular line…”
Bill Harper – “Tell you what
I’m, what I’m.”
Luther Smith – “…same system.
Bill Harper – “What I’m
really concerned about, and most everybody else in here is, you got any kind of
a, of a sewer system that’s based on electric pumps, like a low pressure system
is. It just pumps out and evaporates, it’s on top of the ground. We’re, we’re
afraid all of this, everything that comes out of this if it drains off or sewer
system doesn’t work it’s gonna end up in that lake. And the lake is, is in a
fragile state now because of uh, Champion Hills. All that fill is comin’ a top
and, and the lake’s, lake has really got a problem. And that’s our big concern,
and I think most people in here too is that we’d like to have some kind of
guarantee that none of that sewerage is gonna get in the lake. Now that’s our
number one problem, that’s my big concern.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
That’ll, that’ll be part of your evidence to present. Uh, any other questions
for Mr. Smith? Karen you had some for him?”
Karen Smith – “I did, these
were just for um, some clarification. I don’t know if you wanna come up
Luther.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Is this,
goes back to the uh, Attachment #8 that we spoke of. Is that where you’re
going?”
Karen Smith – “No, no. These are other um, things that.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.”
Karen Smith – “Um. We didn’t
talk about at the Planning Board level. Um, does the developer, or maybe for
Mr. Leoni. Is the developer planning um, a sales office as part of the development?”
Todd Leoni – “Yes. Yes.”
Karen Smith – “In one of the
homes?”
Todd Leoni – “Um, well not
right away. Maybe a uh, maybe more of a trailer uh, right away until we build
the first home. And I, and, you know, we’re not gonna build the home until we
actually sell a lot. So, but I will have a sales office there.”
Karen Smith – “I’ll address
that during my evidence but okay. How about um, a model home, multiple model
homes?”
Todd Leoni – “No.”
Karen Smith – “No models. Um,
and did you say your sales office would be the same as a construction office
or?”
Todd Leoni – “Yes.”
Karen Smith – “Okay. Thank
you.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. Yes
mam, you have a question for Mr. Smith? If you’d come up and take the mic and
state your name and ask Mr. Smith a question.”
Chairman Hawkins – “I.”
Georgina Holmes – “Because
there’s, there’s no flood insurance I understand in, in the c, in the City, in
the County of, of
Chairman Hawkins – “Your
question is, is this in the floodplain?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Luther do
you know the answer to that?”
Luther Smith – “Based on the,
the floodplain map which uh, we use throughout the County it is not indicated
to be within a 100 year floodplain. The lake is, and essentially up to the road
for the most part of the right-of-way. The property outside, on the outside is
not in the floodplain.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Is the
100 year floodplain in the blue on your map.”
Luther Smith – “It’s the dark
blue.”
Chairman Hawkins – “So, it
uh, none of that’s uh, according to the most current maps we have which is two
decades old which is another problem but we won’t get into that tonight.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any other
questions?”
Judith Sloan – “…about the open
land.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay if
you would come up to the mic and identify yourself. And do that just so we can
catch it on the tape because we transcribe the record.”
Judith Sloan – “Okay uh, is
this not just about the septic system but I could talk um.”
Chairman Hawkins – “You.”
Judith Sloan – “Okay I, I
have a question about the open land part of this development. Um, because I
know you have um, like, a sample uh, rules for a covenant for the open land.
Um, but I also see that it, it, can be renewed every so often and that it seems
to me it’s not quite foolproof that the um, people who live there when the
covenant comes due to be renewed could say well we don’t want this for open
land we would rather build something on this. So what I would, am asking you
about this and what would actually request um, because you know, it looks like
a nice little development the way it is. Um, but if then you have these houses
kind of um, condensed together and then the, the, the people who live there
wanna build something else on there at some point later um, is there any way to
assure that nothing will be built like maybe an easement through the land
conservancy or something and not just a covenant that is renewable every 20
years or every five years the way you have it down in there. Um, kind of
concerned about, that the open land stay open land. The way you say they will
be.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Luther
you wanna address that.”
Luther Smith – “That may be a
question that is better for Karen to answer but since this is a zoning permit
uh, this permit goes with the land so the people who live there inherit this
thing. For them to decide oh we wanna get, get City sewer so we don’t need to
use these, these open areas.”
Judith Sloan – “Right,
exactly.”
Luther Smith – “We wanna
build more houses they then have to come back to the County and ask for this
permit to be amended to add more homes to that area. In other words this permit
will lock it to 26 homes until the County gives you a different permit which
allows somebody to build more homes.”
Judith Sloan – “Okay well,
just personally if this is the plan for the property um, which, you know, there
are some issues with it that I have but the basic plan looks nice to me. I
would like to see some kind of um, initiative on the part of the owner or the
whoever to, to make this a permanent plan then. To, to make a conservation
easement on the open spaces so that we don’t have to deal with that in the
future.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any other
questions for Mr. Smith. Yes mam if you’d come up and state your name.”
Dianne Green – “I’m Dianne
Green, I live at uh, 409 Bonner. And so that makes me in a low lying area.
Which I have fought for uh, 36 years, but that’s my problem. But the water that
comes off, rain water, that comes off Kanuga, Chestnut, everybody on Chestnut
comes down hill, across
Chairman Hawkins – “You
talking about the repair, or the uh, septic field is, you think’s under water a
lot of the time but I think Luther said it wasn’t in the 100 year flood plain
so I don’t know if I understand your question.”
Dianne Green – “Well, I guess
what I’m concerned about is that as much water as I get when there’s a lot of
rain, say two or three days of rain you know, and my yard is full of water, my
back yard cause it’s a low lying area. And it drains into the camp where
they’re going to, going to put one of their pump up stations or whatever it’s
called. And so my question is, is there a guarantee that this can’t be, you
know, all this water go in this pump station or whatever cause I don’t I don’t
know anything about pump stations but I’m concerned for my part that is, if
there’s any kind of back flow, I don’t want it in my yard. I don’t need it.”
Chairman Hawkins – “I
understand that. I, I don’t know Luther can you answer that better. I, I don’t
know the answer to that.”
Luther Smith – “I’m not sure.
I understand, if I understand you correctly it’s just during rains you have
water trans, water running across your property.”
Dianne Green – “Exactly it’s
routed from Kanuga.”
Luther Smith – “Right. And,
and I guess my question would be you know, has it impacted your septic field.
If it is”
Dianne Green – “Yes.”
Luther Smith – “then yes
there’s a possibility of it impacting fields downstream.”
Dianne Green – “Most
definitely.”
Luther Smith – “Uh, and
that’s something that uh, you know, when they design the system that we’ll just
have to make ‘em aware of.”
Dianne Green – “Exactly.”
Luther Smith – “Um, that,
that there is a possibility.”
Dianne Green – “Yes. And I
guess another question I may not be able to get it done or whatever but, since
there is this problem and it would effect their septic system could they, you
know, in the future before they get anything started whatever, put in some huge
culvert pipe to d, to route it. See it’s just like Mr. Harper said, all this is
gonna do is route it down to the people, you know, on
Luther Smith – “There’s a
little creek that runs down through there.”
Dianne Green – “Yes, yes. So
that’s.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Well
maybe we’ll get into that a little more. There, there’s part of the covenants
over here that deals with storm water runoff I believe and uh, I think the
State requires a um, some kind of plan for uh, sedimentation and erosion
control and so that, that may be addressed in it. I don’t know I, I, we’ve not
got to that point yet.”
Dianne Green – “Okay. Thank
you.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any other
questions for Mr. Smith?”
June Reese – “May I say
something about just what Dianne said?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Well, if
you wanna do that in, when you’re giving evidence. Right now we’re just taking
questions to Mr. Smith. You’ll have an opportunity to give whatever evidence
you want since you’re a party in just a few minutes.”
June Reese – “Okay.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Okay, let’s see. We’ve got the applicants evidence and anybody had anymore
question on the evidence that uh, Mr. Smith or Mr. Leoni presented? Okay then
we’ll move on to staff evidence and uh, Karen if you wanna give yours and then
we’ll start with the parties evidence.”
Karen Smith – “It’s not as
big as my normal packet.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Press go
down?”
Karen Smith – “Anthony’s
handing out the same item to the um, parties.”
Chairman Hawkins – “We’ll,
we’ll take just a minute to read this Karen. I’m going to uh.”
Karen Smith – “Okay. Let me
know”
Chairman Hawkins – “I’ll be
right back.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay
Karen. Everybody had a chance to get through those?”
Commissioner Moyer – “One
more second.”
Karen Smith – “Alright.
Okay.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Ready
Bill? Okay.”
Karen Smith – “Um, before I
go any further I mentioned earlier in the meeting that I wanted to enter the
large packet into evidence um, as part of my evidence uh, for the record. Also,
the two uh, sheets of photos, or I think it’s a double sided sheet is what you
have. Um, there’s here if we need them for anybody’s reference uh, if the Board
has any questions about those and that sort of thing. I guess I also need to
enter the floodplain map that we put up on the um, document camera a little
while ago. Um, and then now, this memo that I presented to you. As I mentioned
earlier the Planning Board has uh, discussed and made recommendations on this
special use permit application. And basically what the Planning Board did was
review the staff memo. They received some information from the reviewing
agencies, they heard from Mr. Smith, they discussed what they heard and they
decided in looking at the zoning requirements for the special use permit uh, to
approve, 6-1 vote, the, or, recommend approval of the special use permit
application subject to certain conditions. Those conditions actually were the
comments that are contained in the staff memo that’s in your big packet and
it’s Attachment #5. And rather than reproduce all of that to attach to this
packet that I just handed out I wanted to uh, review some of those with you so
know which ones are still um, outstanding conditions, some that have satisfied
due to the submittal of additional information, and some that appear to be
satisfied to me based on the Planning
Board’s discussion and the draft minutes that you have uh, from their
meeting on September 21st.
The um, okay, I’ll go over
first the ones that appear to have been satisfied and if you want to follow
along in Attachment #5 uh, basically I’m starting on page 5 in Attachment #5.
Everybody finds the, half way down are the staff comments based on the review
under the Zoning Ordinance. And as of or since September 21st 2004
the following comments, which the Planning Board recommended as conditions have
been satisfied. The Comment #1, which has to do with the ownership of the
property they did establish that at the time the Planning Board review,
actually prior to. Comment #2 which has to do with the density requirements,
uh, they did satisfy the, the PUD standards and Zoning Ordinance requirements
for that. Uh, Comment #3 the height limitations which for a PUD is 35 feet for
structures that is indicated on their plans. Comment #7 off street parking um,
required two parking spaces per dwelling unit. Uh, wasn’t specifically
indicated on their earlier plans but the plan that we’re reviewing tonight
shows, uh, the development plan shows there will be two spaces including the
garage space. Uh, Comment #10 which has to do with dwelling unit access, the
applicant did clarify for the Planning Board that um, certain lots did have
access to uh,
In addition to the ones that
have been satisfied, uh, the Planning Board also made some recommendations as
to um, some standards that the project should be allowed to be constructed
under. The Planned Unit Development section of the ordinance allows some of
these things with specific approval. And in this case um, the Planning Board
recommended that they be allowed to construct the project according to the
conditions found in Comment #4, required distance between buildings. Um, the
Zoning Ordinance, uh, Planned Unit Development section permits uh, minimum
separation between single family detached dwellings to be reduced below the
minimum specified in another section provided the buildings are not closer than
ten feet and that the um, construction of adjacent walls conforms with North
Carolina building codes and that the area between buildings remains open. And
so the, the Planning Board um, recommended approval based on the applicant
meeting that standard. Um, allowing them to go down to the ten feet on the
villa lots and 15 feet on the cottages. Uh, they also agreed to uh, recommend,
uh, the standards for setbacks and side to side separations that have been
proposed by the applicant. And if you look on, see, that’s in comments,
actually it’s after Comment #14 on page 8 of the Staff memo. Uh, as I mentioned
earlier Planned Unit Development concept gives you flexibility as to the
standards for setbacks and, and lot sizes and such. And the developer has
proposed um, front yard setbacks of 44 feet 6 inches from the center lines of
rights-of-way for all the lots. Uh, rear setbacks of 10 feet for the villa lots
and 15 feet for the cottage lots. And side setbacks of 10 feet and zero feet
for the villa lots due to that zero lot line concept. And side setbacks of 7
feet 6 inches on the cottage lots. And the Planning Board uh, was um, in favor
of recommending that the developer be able use those setbacks as proposed. In
addition the uh, applicant had proposed the minimum side to side separation
between structures be 10 feet for the villa lots and 15 feet for the cottage
lots. And again the Planning Board uh, has recommended this provided that the
um, construction of adjacent walls conform with the
The um, remaining comments or
conditions recommended by the Planning Board that would still need to be
addressed in whole or in part, in order for the developer to begin construction
um, that I see are Comment #5 dealing with the water plans. Um, Mr. Smith
indicated earlier that they had preliminary water plan approval. That uh,
comment or condition requires that the applicant submit plans and other
documentations to ensure that the water system has been designed by a
professional engineer and that such system has been approved by appropriate
local and state agencies. Uh Comment #6.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Excuse me
Karen.”
Karen Smith – “I’m sorry.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Do you
know, is there a State agency has to approve the, the water plan or is that
just the local.”
Karen Smith – “In this case I don’t believe so I think it’s purely City.”
Luther Smith – “No it.”
Karen Smith – “It, it does
have to go to the State?”
Luther Smith – “Every
extension of the City system goes to the City first”
Karen Smith – “That’s right.”
Luther Smith – “and they have
to forward it to the State to get approval for expanding their system then it
comes back.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.”
Luther Smith – “We have City,
City approval, it’s gone to the State.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay,
thank you.”
Karen Smith – “Thank you. Uh,
Comment #6 regarding the sewer plans uh, that’s still outstanding. Uh, the
applicant has to submit plans and documentation similar to that for water um,
that they’ve been designed by a professional engineer and that they, the
systems have been approved by the appropriate uh, agencies. In this case it
would be the State.
Uh, Comment, let’s see #8
down with erosion control. Again, Mr. Smith, this was outstanding, Mr. Smith
has indicated that the applicant has such approval. They would just need to
submit documentation of that prior to beginning construction.
Comment #9 dealing with
emergency services uh, the Ordinance actually requires the applicant to send
letters out to the Fire Chief, the EMS Director, and such um, notifying them
and asking for comments. Um, the Planning Department received a response to our
request for comments for the Fire Chief but as of yet I, I don’t believe that
the applicant has received anything in writing from either the um,
Chairman Hawkins – “Well is
that a matter of that agency corresponding with…”
Karen Smith – “With him and
then him submitting that to us.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.”
Karen Smith – “Okay? Uh
Comment #11, perimeter treatment um, I have this as a comment or, or, Mr. Cook
did in the Planning Board’s review. Um, however I don’t remember that it was
specifically addressed at the Planning Board meeting so I think that is just
something that the applicant should address. Um, if Commissioners are satisfied
with their response there may not need to be a condition. If, if uh, not the
um, Board may wanna consider a condition.
Uh, Comment #12, the
conveyance of open space and Comment #13 maintenance, um, we’ve already had
some discussion about those. Um, you have to receive the legal documents that
will produce the guarantees on the open space and um, the insurance setting forth
the care and maintenance of the open spaces, recreation areas, rights-of-way,
community facilities and on maintenance it requires that the County Attorney or
Assistant County Attorney approve the Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions
and the bylaws as to form and that the Commissioners approve the same as to the
suit, suitability for the proposed uses. And Mr. Burrell may address that a
little bit later but um, based on a prior Planned Unit Development application
I believe you actually dep, delegated that to your
Um, in addition to those
comments now that I’ve reviewed, those that are completed um, some of the
standards and some that are still outstanding. Um, I wanted to proposed that
we, just to tie everything back together, that the Board of Commissioners also
make the special use permit approval subject to the applicant satisfying all of
the requirements of the Subdivision Ordinance and the conditions that the
Planning Board imposed on that. And then uh, in addition to this memo based on
response to the question I asked Mr. Leoni, I would also ask that the Board
have the applicant indicate on the plan where the sales and construction office
would be located and under what conditions it would be placed and removed. Um, typically
the Board of Adjustment grants temporary uses for things such as this but the
Board of Commissioners has allowed it a part of a special use permit process if
it’s specifically designated and time frames are spelled out and that sort of
thing. And I have a um, if the Board wants to consider it um, later a condition
that you used in prior special use permit with regard to that. And that is all
I have.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. Uh,
any, anybody have any questions to the Staff’s evidence? Yes mam if you’d come
up and state your name and uh, Mrs. Smith’ll try to answer any question you
have.”
Marsha Hammel – “Marsha
Hammel,
Chairman Hawkins – “You wanna
try to answer that?”
Karen Smith – “Well I, I
don’t have any control over the design of the project as far as what, road it
was considered or not. Um, and I really don’t have any information about
Marsha Hammel – “Well what
would be the proper channels to address this idea through.”
Karen Smith – “I don’t know a
whole lot about paper streets I’d probably have to defer…”
Chairman Hawkins – “I, I
don’t either. I suspect it sounds like that the question is more appropriate to
ask the developer than uh, than Staff. Uh, and uh, I don’t know Mr. Leoni do
you wanna address that?”
Todd Leoni – “Yeah I, I’ll
address that. Um, I, I told Marsha uh, when she had approached me with this
last night. And it, do which is
Chairman Hawkins – “Thank
you, do you, does anybody have any other questions for Mrs. Smith. Yes mam.”
Brenda Coates - “It’s not a
question but it’s a comment on what, on what Mr. Leoni and what she ques, she
raised a question about. Uh,
Chairman Hawkins – “Wouldn’t
surprise me. Any, any other questions for Staff’s evidence. Okay. Okay let me
ask now for um, any of the parties evidence. Each of you that’s been uh,
recognized by the Board as a party at this time can come up and present
whatever evidence you want. Uh, because you’re party you don’t have to come up
and present evidence if, if four people ahead of you said the same thing you
was gonna say you don’t have to come up but you’re welcome to if you want to. So
uh at this time uh, any of the parties that’s been recognized uh, uh, can take
the mic and present your evidence uh, for the Board.”
Dianne Green – “We’ve made,
excuse me, Dianne Green, 409 Bonner. We’ve made uh, extra pictures of Bonner if
anybody would like ‘em.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Are these
these pictures that we have here?”
Dianne Green – “No sir.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.”
Dianne Green – “These are
just personal picture we made of the street just so you’d get an idea of what
it looks like.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Do you
have enough for everybody in the proceedings…”
Dianne Green – “Yes sir.”
Chairman Hawkins – “and uh,
uh, can we submit that then as evidence. If you’d give those to the Clerk.”
Dianne Green – “Okay.”
Chairman Hawkins – “And then
uh, if you’d leave some on the table there for everybody that’s a party to look
at, uh, then we’ll uh, we’ll take a look at ‘em.”
Dianne Green – “Um, I just
wanted to draw the attention uh, back to the traffic that would be on
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.”
Dianne Green – “And not only
the uh, dust problem and the traffic, and especially when the construction’s
going on the big trucks that’ll be coming down that little road. That’s all.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay,
thank you. Anybody have any questions for Ms. Breen on her evidence? Applicant,
Staff, and other parties? Thank you. Any, any other parties wants to present
evidence?”
Georgina Holmes – “
Chairman Hawkins – “Anybody
have any questions uh, for
Bill Harper – “Bill Harper,
Chairman Hawkins – “Any, any
questions for Mr. Harper from any of the other parties? Any other parties wants
to present evidence.”
Brenda Coates – “Brenda
Coates,
Um, the, the septic will be a
problem a I guess we will lie, rely on State engineers to determine if the
ground can uh, hold that kind of a septic system on the property. So I, I would
say that the plans as submitted if, if they do go through that, that I find
them uh, agreeable to look at. We just need to address the problems of the
sewer. We need to address the problems of the roads. It is a, a serious
consideration for all the people in the area especially with the lake there.
Thank you.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any, any
parties have any questions for Ms. Coates?”
Dianne Green – “If I could
make another comment please.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Yes mam
if you’d take the mic.”
Dianne Green – “Dianne Green.
Um, we all like the idea of having the camp developed. I mean that would be
really nice. Because it’s uh, very deteriorated right now. Uh, since the storm
there’s been trees and they’re uprooted on the cabins and uh we all have to
look at this every day so this is a nice, for us you know. So as far as the
develop, developing the property there’s none of us opposing that. Our only
problem is the
Chairman Hawkins – “Any, any
questions for Ms. Green from anybody? Thank you Ms. Green. Are there any other
parties that wanna present evidence? Please.”
Judith Sloan – “Uh, Judith
Sloan,
Um, let’s see. One of the
reasons
Chairman Hawkins – “Any
questions for? Any other parties wish to submit any evidence?”
Judith Sloan – “Well my son
wanted to say something.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any, any
parties wish to call witnesses.”
Judith Sloan – “My son is
concerned about something and he wanted to speak.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Are you
calling him as a witness?”
Judith Sloan – “Um, I call
Orion Goodman to witness.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay Mr.
Goodman.”
Orion Goodman – “I like to
ride my bike like, around the neighborhood and um, if traffic came on
Chairman Hawkins – “Any
questions? Any, any of the other parties want to call a witness.”
Jerry Jones - “I’d like to.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Are you?”
Jerry Jones – “Make a
statement please.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay so
you wanna come up. I think you were already sworn as a party.”
Jerry Jones – “Yes I was.
Jerry Jones,
Chairman Hawkins – “Any body
have any questions for? Thank you. Okay uh, any other parties for, that wanna
present evidence or any parties that wants to call witnesses?”
Marsha Hammel - “I’ve got a
question.”
Chairman Hawkins – “If you
wanna present some evidence uh, you may take the mic and uh.”
Marsha Hammel – “Um, Marsha
Hammel,
Chairman Hawkins – “We’ll get
to that after we hear all the evidence.”
Marsha Hammel – “Thank you.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any other
questions uh, for, the, this is your third shot Ms. Green.”
Dianne Green – “Okay. I’ll
sit down. Uh, it hasn’t been brought up but I’ve often wondered why uh, they
don’t use Chestnut. They, you can get off Kanuga, it’s a paved street, it’s
well traveled, it’s, you know, all they gotta do is go on Chestnut, Patterson
it’s, it’s already paved and well traveled, and they can go around and down
South Lake.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Who are
they? I, you taking about construction people?”
Dianne Green – “Yeah,
construction or whoever needs to have a lot of travel right now, you know,
instead of coming down
Chairman Hawkins – “And they
may well do that.”
Dianne Green – “Right. Yes.”
Chairman Hawkins – “I was…”
Dianne Green – “I just take
for granted that they wanna use Bonner cause it’s flat and Chestnut’s got a
hill.”
Chairman Hawkins – “I.”
Dianne Green – “You know.”
Chairman Hawkins – “I don’t
know.”
Dianne Green – “So I just
want to bring that up that they can use the already paved road.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Basically
what, what you’re saying is there are other routes other than Bonner.”
Dianne Green – “Leave Bonner
out of it.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Well we.”
Dianne Green – “Thank you.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any
questions? Okay.”
Judith Sloan – “I just have
one small thing…”
Chairman Hawkins – “Yes mam.”
Judith Sloan – “Judith Sloan.
Um, on the subject of
Chairman Hawkins – “Do you
have copies for everybody?”
Judith Sloan – “Yes, I have
copies for everyone, everybody. And basically, you know, our feeling on
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Okay we’ve received all the ele, uh, evidence uh, does anyone wish to make any
closing remarks? Uh, we’ll start first with the uh, I’m sorry wait just a
minute I’m, I think we had uh, rebuttals first. Do we have any rebuttal
evidence? Okay. Uh, then I would ask if anyone wishes to give closing remarks.
Uh, the applicant, do have any closing remarks that you wanna give Mr. Leoni?
You wanna mention anything that’s been brought up?”
Todd Leoni – “Um, you know, I
um, I have grown up on this property. Uh, as a boy I went, my parents, I’m, I’m
from
Chairman Hawkins – “Thank
you. Staff do you have any closing comments?”
Karen Smith – “No sir.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Uh, any
of the other parties have closing comments? If ya’ll would just take turns
comin’ up.”
Georgina Holmes – “
Chairman Hawkins – “Some
other closing comments? Yes sir.”
Bill Harper – “Bill Harper,
Chairman Hawkins – “Thanks
Mr. Harper. Any, anyone else wants to make a closing comment?”
Todd Leoni – “Just quickly.
You know, I’m open to offers so if you guys got your checkbook with you come
on, I’m ready.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Thank
you.”
Judith Sloan – “Judy Sloan.
Um, On
Chairman Hawkins – “Thank
you. Any other parties closing remarks.”
Dianne Green – “Do I get to
go past three strikes.”
Chairman Hawkins - “Or, the applicant then will have the. Do you,
do you have another rem, another remark?”
Dianne Green – “Just one, one
more comment I promise. Right now, and I just noticed this recently, um, like I
say we don’t really have a problem as far as the development cause I think it’d
really be great. Because there are vagrants using the cabins and this disturbs
me cause like I say I’ve lived there so long that I know when there’s anything
moved in that camp really and like he said when he went to the camp he was
probably one of the little boys I rocked out of my yard. But anyhow um, that is
my biggest concern right now is that there is no one watching out for this camp
and making sure there isn’t any dangerous people in there because we are right
on, you know, right beside especially me and everyone in here probably. But
anyhow, um, there’s bottles. There’s, you know, beer bottles, there’s all of
the trees that’s went through the roofs of the cabins so they’ve started
puttin’ plastic on the windows. So, you know, we know there’s people coming in
at night and staying in there cause you can hear ‘em once in a while you know.
And that is a concern right now. Whether it’s developed or not I just feel like
someone should be monitoring this camp to see who’s living there and what
they’re using it for because we’re pretty sure it’s drug and you know, under
the table things. Thank you.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Thank
you. Okay the applicant has an option of any final closing remarks.”
Todd Leoni – “No.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. Uh,
before we go out of public hearing I did have one question I wanted you uh, Mr.
Leoni. That, the status of the road that runs through is, you, you mentioned
that you were anticipating putting sidewalks on it.”
Todd Leoni – “Yes sir.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Is that,
uh, is that gonna be open to the public to go through or not? I, I wasn’t quite
sure and how do you.”
Todd Leoni – “Um, I didn’t
really address that and I, I didn’t expect to close it off. I, I figure that
everyone could use it. I mean as far as I’m concerned. I didn’t, I don’t think
I, it’s been addressed though. But I wasn’t, there was not gonna be like a gate
or a fence up. I was not gonna put that it was gonna be, and, you know, I, I
mean the ma, that road should really be for the residents but I mean if the
people of
Unknown – “They will.”
Todd Leoni – “Well, I mean
you know but no I don’t, I don’t think so. But I, I think that you know, the
people that live in the area if they wanna walk down to the lake, rather than
go around, you know, for me I wouldn’t have a problem with that I, you know, I
want everyone to be able to use it, you know.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Thank
you.”
Todd Leoni – “But I, I
certainly, one other thing, I certainly don’t want to, uh, if it becomes, you
know, a, an access of, of a lot of clutter and you know, and it starts to
bother the residents that are living there then, you know, I want the
homeowners association to be able to say hey, you know what, we don’t want this
kind of traffic here. If we have to put up one of those things, but if, people
wanna walk down to the lake from Bonner Street that could be a different, you
know, that’s a different thing. But I think that um, you know, we’ll, we’ll
address that issue when it becomes a problem.”
Commissioner Young – “Is that
street through your development gonna be a state maintained road?”
Todd Leoni – “No sir.”
Chairman Hawkins – “One of
the uh, one of the requirements was on the plat and to indicated that it may
not be built to state standards and I think ya’ll have already addressed that
so uh. Is there any other questions the Board has of anybody before we go out
of public hearing? Uh, once the Board is out of public hearing we won’t hear
anymore from, uh, from the uh audience. It’ll be our deliberation and we won’t be
accepting any other comments from the floor. So any questions the Board may
have?”
Commissioner Young – “Can we
ask questions of Karen or?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Sure.”
Commissioner Young – “Okay.
Karen on, on, on the page six of your memorandum here, down, down on number
four it says required distance between buildings. Um, what is the required
distance that we have on record now between these villas and the setbacks. Uh,
I see ‘em listed over here that, that the setbacks that.”
Karen Smith – “Ones that the
applicant has proposed.”
Commissioner Young – “Yeah.
Uh, what, how much variation are they between that and what is required in our
zoning ordinance.”
Karen Smith – “Give me just a
moment to get to the. It’s in Section 200-33 which is at the back of your
packets but let me get the specific section.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Would
that be the setbacks for an R-20?”
Karen Smith – “No it
actually, the setbacks in the um, the uh, Planned Unit Development section.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Oh it,
that’s it. Okay.”
Karen Smith – “It, it
addresses separation between buildings. Let me just try to find that for a
minute. Uh, if you’re looking at Section 200-33 if you go to, this is at the
back of the packet, Attachment I believe #8. You need to go to 200-33A(6)(a)
and it talks about the normal lot side setbacks and frontage rule requirements
being waived for a PUD. Um, and that the Board has the ultimate discretion on
whether or not the, the plan complies with the intent of the ordinance. Um,
requirement A2 is the required distance between buildings um, and it, it talks
about whether they’re end to end, side to side and that sort of thing. So
normally if they’re end to end, short sides, and are less than 20 feet in
height, minimum separation is 20 feet. If one or both buildings exceed 20 feet,
separation gets increased an additional foot for every foot of increased
height.”
Commissioner Young – “So.”
Karen Smith – “If they’re
loc. I’m sorry. Go ahead.”
Commissioner Young –
“Basically we’re looking at cuttin’ um, the distance in half basically from 20
feet to 10 feet.”
Karen Smith – “Um hum. If
they, if they provide that firewall.”
Commissioner Messer – “Karen
I’ve got a question on uh, I guess the recommendation from the Planning Board
and I’ve looked over, looking over or looked at some of these from our other
people in Henderson County. The fire departments etcetera, going back to the
public safety of uh, of that road. Was that ever brought out to the Planning
Board about the public safety”
Karen Smith – “On
Commissioner Messer – “and
access and. Right, on
Karen Smith – “I think it was brought out more in terms of the driveway permit
from DOT and whether or not they could obtain that permit. And as it turned
out, apparently the permit had already been issued but they comment we got from
another employee at DOT said that the driveway permit would be necessary. But I
think that is about the only discussion that the Planning Board had on it.”
Commissioner Young – “Um,
Karen Smith – “It is.”
Commissioner Young – “More
than a road.”
Karen Smith – “It is.”
Commissioner Young – “And
it’s, and it’s a narrow one lane?”
Karen Smith – Yes it is.”
Commissioner Young – “Has the
DOT purchased right-of-way or do they own right-of-way to widen that street to
make it a normal two way street with the proper ditching and sewer run offs.
Storm sewer run offs?”
Karen Smith – “I don’t
believe so, but I, I can’t answer that for certain. Um, based on the testimony
I’m hearing tonight the right-of-way has not been granted although the
applicant has shown an additional uh, amount of area along
Commissioner Young – “Well if
that’s, and it looks like that’s gonna be the main access street really into
that property or.”
Karen Smith – “I, I don’t
know which will be the main but, you know, you’ve heard comments about people
trying to get to Kanuga and that sort of thing which’ll be quicker.”
Commissioner Young – “It
looks like it, if you wanna increase the traffic and, and if you just use 26
units and two cars per unit you’re increasing the traffic quite a bit for that,
that uh. It’s got to be a two street to carry that amount, extra amount of
traffic.”
Karen Smith – “And we don’t
have any standards for that. You know under even the normal subdivision
requirements. If they can access a state road, we don’t, we don’t have any
standards as far as traffic um, or doing traffic studies or anything like that.
And so, uh, that’s probably not why it was not…”
Commissioner Young – “Of
course my next question goes to the #7 on your memorandum on page 6.”
Karen Smith – “Which
attachment are you in? One?”
Commissioner Young – “Um,
attachment five.”
Karen Smith – “Five.”
Commissioner Young – “And
down on #7 it says off-street parking. The applicant’s primary development,
preliminary development plan does not appear to specifically address the
requirements of off street parking. So that tells me that uh, they’re gonna
mainly park on the street on, in that subdivision. They’re not gonna have
driveways or parking places.”
Karen Smith – “When I
testified earlier.”
Commissioner Young – “For
each unit.”
Karen Smith – “The revised
plan does address it. Um, it is in the upper right corner of the revised
development plan in Attachment, in Attachment #8.”
Commissioner Young – “What
I’m concerned about is on
Karen Smith – “I sent the
comment sheets to those agencies and the only comment I got back was from the
fire chief and it had to do with the hydrant. So I didn’t hear any other
concerns, but if the Board wants to have somebody address those concerns you
could call them. Probably have to continue the meeting and call them. But
that’s why I send it out to review agencies for those kind of comments cause
they do talk to us all the time about that at the subdivision level.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any.”
Commissioner Messer – “I’ve
got a question I guess for Mr. Leoni on uh, uh, have you ever done or had any
uh, roads or talked about any other access to this property other than what’s
currently being, you know.”
Todd Leoni – “No sir, because
there really, first of all there’s really no other option. Um, what I, and I
didn’t know this un, just until tonight that Wright Street below the property
um, who um, Brenda Coats who lives right next door to the property she says
that someone has built some housing on there. And there is, there’s like a
little creek that is at the, I think it’s the east, is that the east end of my
property, I think it’s the east end of the property. So, uh, you know, that,
the, I don’t think that that’s really an option. And also the way that this
property is situated it backs up to another development which is already developed
and houses are, I think, built in the way. Uh, they say the street goes
straight through but, I don’t understand how because I’ve been back there and
there’s no uh, there are houses that are, are, that are in the way. As, as far
as I’m concerned I think that’s really the job for the DOT. Um, you know, and
not really for me. The, the access is really either through
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay.
Any, any other questions for Mr. Leoni?”
Todd Leoni – “And uh one, one
other thing I wanted to, to say was you know when, a few years ago when the DOT
approached me to pave you know, they, they wanna take 25 feet from the center
of the, they wanna take 25 feet from the center of the street. They wanted me
to dedicate and I said okay. It’s, I don’t, I don’t know that some of the
resident fully understand what the consequences are but that has always been,
has never been paved and it’s 25 feet from the center so if it’s um, five feet
or nine feet or whatever they would have to give up, you know, or dedicate a
portion of their property to increase the road. My property ha, owns the
majority of one side of it, and, you know, I, I would be affected by it as
well. I, I, therefore I’d have less land but I know it would be good for the
entire area so as far as I was concerned I think it would, I think it would be
good. Even before I addressed this, this thing. But I’m, I’m stuck because
they’re not interested in doing it.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Does
anybody on the Board have any other questions before we go out of public
hearing? Mrs. Smith has something to.”
Karen Smith – “If I can just
um, ask one more time if there would be any information the applicant wants to
provide about the um, construction or sales office. If there are details…”
Chairman Hawkins – “And, and
also I’d uh, ask if you plan any phased development uh, and Lu, Luther you or,
or Mr. Leoni might wanna answer both of those.”
Luther Smith – “Um, to the
best of my knowledge unless Mr. Leoni has changed the plans we discussed uh,
this is looked at from a development standpoint uh, the infrastructure is a
single phase project. In other words the roads, water and sewer. Um, now the
homes would obviously be built over a period of time as lots are sold but, but
it is to be developed as a single phase subdivision. Uh, could I, could I add
an, another thing. I realize everybody has been talking about using Bonner as a
primary entrance. The project was designed from a standpoint of, of uh,
whatever it is, South Lakeside Drive as the primary entrance with the DOT
permit having the, the widened taper and everything entering into an existing
paved street as opposed to Bonner Street. But, you know, granted some people
may go out the back to get to
Chairman Hawkins – “And, and
the construction or uh, I’m sorry what was your other question Karen? The uh,
office, sales office?”
Karen Smith – “The
sales/construction office. Where it would be, how long it would be there?”
Chairman Hawkins – “You wanna
answer that Mr. Leoni?”
Todd Leoni – “Yeah um, well,
I didn’t, I haven’t placed it yet. Um, because I’m just really selling the
lots. Um, I don’t know where it will be cause I haven’t addressed that. But um,
it, where it will be will be somewhere by the entrance of
Chairman Hawkins – “Does that
answer your question Karen?”
Karen Smith – “Um, sort of. I
didn’t know if maybe the Board should just defer it to the Board of Adjustment
when he does know cause uh.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Uh, that
may be a better solution and that’d give you time if, if we give it the
permit.”
Todd Leoni – “Okay.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any
other, any other questions by the Board?”
Commissioner Moyer – “Well it
might help the situation if he’d commit to put it at the corner of
Todd Leoni – “To commit to
put the sales office at the corner of
Commissioner Moyer – “It
would bring the people in from that way”
Todd Leoni – “Absolutely.”
Commissioner Moyer – “rather
than Bonner which is one of the things they’re.”
Todd Leoni – “Absolutely I
would commit to that. You got it. I mean that, I mean that’s what I would
rather. I would rather have people, right and from, from my, from my standpoint
you know when they come in I want them to see the lake. That’s a very important
selling point I think. So, yes, I, I commit to that.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Can I
ask another question of Mr. Leoni? One the sewer which is a big issue which I
think is solvable.”
Todd Leoni – “Yes sir.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Um, the
um, the overall situation, if you’re collect monies to make sure this is kept
up, and if you put in your bylaws and charter, which I’m sure Luther can tell
you, you put an assessment on the properties.”
Todd Leoni – “Yes.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Which
is enforceable.”
Todd Leoni – “Uh huh.”
Commissioner Moyer – “I mean
you have to do it if you’re gonna be able to collect the.”
Todd Leoni – “Right.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Otherwise
people can not pay.”
Todd Leoni – “Right.”
Commissioner Moyer – “I think
people would be more comfortable if there was a specific mechanism in there
which provided a way for you to enforce your right to get money to repair the
sewer system, the roads etcetera if there were any problem.”
Todd Leoni – “I see. What I
think they...”
Commissioner Moyer – “…bylaws
it’s not there. But that’s the mechanism you need.”
Todd Leoni – “Okay.”
Commissioner Moyer – “And
could we specify that uh.”
Todd Leoni – “And they made,
I don’t know if you’ve read the, the Dec. Restrictions, but there may be some,
some um, some wording in there to that effect as well, you know, special
assessment or um, you know, as, as to the, as to the sewer system, you know,
all this is governed by, I think the Health Department here. I mean, and if
this is, this is gonna be a brand new system I would think that um, you know,
based on, you know, uh the soil and science and the, the engineer and the way
it’s worked it’s all gonna be approved you know, by this municipality. So, why
wouldn’t it work unless, unless something, you know, catastrophic happened I, I
just don’t under. I don’t really understand the concern if I go through the
proper channels or, and permitting I, I don’t understand how it, how it could
fail. I mean if it’s done, you know, with engineers and, and soil science and,
you know, all the stuff that really would make it work.”
Commissioner Moyer – “And
that’s true but the separate issue if there would be a problem, we’re trying to
protect what the citizens…”
Todd Leoni – “Absolutely.”
Commissioner Moyer – “…to us
is saying.”
Todd Leoni – “You’re right.”
Commissioner Moyer – “…had a
condition in there to put a lien to enforce collection and repair”
Todd Leoni – “Absolutely.”
Commissioner Moyer – “then it
would help your situation.”
Todd Leoni – “Right.”
Commissioner Moyer – “And
that would be acceptable to you?”
Todd Leoni – “Yeah and I
think it’s in my dec, my, my restrictions uh you know any type of special
assessments or anything.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any, any
other questions by the Board? Then I move
we go out of public hearing, all those in favor of that motion say aye.”
In unison – “Aye.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. Um,
discussed a lot of information uh, uh, I think that uh, uh, we’ve had a look at
uh, a lot of concerns that the surrounding uh, uh residents have. Uh, they deal
uh, not only with the access of roads, traffic safety issue, uh, run off and,
and the sewer system. Those are, those are about the, the three things. Uh, one
of the things that I would point out in the uh, in the, in our code book, uh,
that uh, to be able to qualify for a PUD that you have to have uh, is uh,
something that deals with the conveyance of open space, recreational areas, and
communally owned facilities. And uh, because somebody raised that question of
what if you know, some time from now somebody decided to do something else.
Well you really can’t decide to do something else uh, because the common open
space, the recreational areas uh, and owned facility shall be guaranteed by
restrictive covenants describing the areas and facilities and their
maintenance. That’s what uh, Bill was just talking about, uh, their maintenance
and improvements running with the land and this is something that uh, that the
County Attorney pointed out, that runs with the land it doesn’t, it doesn’t go
any, anywhere else that, it stays right there. For the residents of the Planned
Unit Development or, adjoining property owners or both. So uh, that, some of
the issues that you’ve raised uh, to, to be able to qualify as a uh, as a
Planned Unit Development to meet code uh, the
Commissioner Moyer – “You mean when it gets conveyed to the homeowners
association.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Yeah,
because that was one of the problems that we ran into in another subdivision
uh, because, uh, Bill, might correct me if I’m wrong, I think that commonly
owned property is not subject to tax. Is that correct? Or you get an exemption
from it? Where you have to.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Under
certain circumstances.”
Chairman Hawkins – “But you
have to file for it. You being the homeowners if you live in the subdivision.
Uh, however if the developer waits until December 31st at 6:00 in
the evening to convey the property to the homeowners that have not applied for
a tax exempt then uh, uh, there can, there can be problems with that and so uh.
I, I, that’s the reason I pointed that out is how that property is gonna be
conveyed. It won’t affect you out there but it’ll affect the people that uh, if
the Board allows the use permit, that moves in so that they don’t get caught up
in the, in the tax uh, uh, catch 22 thing. So I, I would think that we’d need
to address that uh, if that’s the pleasure of the Board.”
Commissioner Moyer – “And I
would imagine that since it’s only one phase you would convey the roads and the
open space…”
Chairman Hawkins – “Right. As
soon as you opened it up.”
Commissioner Moyer – “…before
any property sold just like your covenants…”
Chairman Hawkins – “Uh,
probably when you made the uh, the homeowners, which you have to do before you
ever sell a house would be a place to put it in but uh, those are just some
things I think need to be addressed so. Uh, those, those were the notes that I
had and uh, uh, I don’t know if uh, Charlie you got any, any other stuff you
wanna bring up or thoughts and, or things you wanna discuss.”
Commissioner Messer – “No not
really other than the fact that I do have some concern about the streets uh,
for the public safety of the people of Henderson County which, you know, all of
our, I mean all of us have that uh, same concern. Uh, but then we have Staff
that has looked at the evidence and so forth and, and, you know, voted it a
unanimous decision to accept it. And it sounds like the developer and the
people that live in the subdivision or the area are trying to, you know, reach
an agreement that would be suitable for everyone. Uh, and that’s basically
what, you know, I intend to do. Uh, but the re, but they are rules and
regulations from the State on septic, on roads, etcetera. And, and, you know
we’ve, you know we’ve heard these same problems before in, in other uh, uh,
times and so, you know, I mean I know it’s a tough call, uh, but something, I
guess, what I’m saying it’s, if you weren’t to develop then somebody else would
come back, well sooner or later and develop it, and it could be worse than
what, you know, you know, you’re applying. And you know we’ve also heard that
so uh, like I say maybe we can work things out. You know, you sound like you’re
trying to work things out and some of your, your people likewise so. You know
that’s basically all I have to say.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Bill you
got, what are your thoughts uh.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Well, I
think we’ve dealt with most of the issues except for uh, for
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay. And
Larry your.”
Commissioner Young – “One of
the charges that this Board has is protecting the property and the public
safety and welfare of the people. And from the information that I’ve got
tonight with Bonner Street, with the sewer system, with the storm water run
off, with the, a, uh, emergency vehicles being able to access this property,
with the increased amount of traffic, I don’t believe that, and, and, cuttin’
our setbacks in half to allow them to build these units on this property, I
don’t feel like that’s being served if we pass this uh, plan to, uh, special
use plan to uh, give him the right to put this development in. Right now I’m in
favor of not passing the uh, plan.”
Chairman Hawkins – “What uh,
what kind of things or restrictions do you feel need to put on …”
Commissioner Young – “Well
there’s a lot from the DOT that needs to be done, that needs to furnish this
Board. There’s um, probably uh, the sewer people, the Health Department, they
need to give us the um, information that we need to be guaranteed that this is
gonna be put in in a right way, We need to know that if he goes to gradin’ it’s
not flood neighbors. You know, there’s a lot of things that need to be looked
at in this and, and I just, till we get more confirmed information and more
guarantee I can’t vote for the plan.”
Chairman Hawkins – “If he had
a, if he had stipulations in your uh, in your conditions to, to meet those
requirements from uh, from uh, whatever, whatever DOT has to offer which we
don’t have any control over, uh, but certainly the sewer uh, is gonna have to
meet it and”
Commissioner Young – “Yeah
the Health Department, they’re gonna have to do that. The the
Chairman Hawkins – “Well I
think the uh, the applicant’s indicated really that uh, that he had really not
planned to use Bonner Street as a, as a, either a primary part of the
construction or uh, the, the, the uh, the people moving in and out of it uh, but
that aside if uh, Kar, uh, well I think the wh, the area down there is uh, uh
already zoned R-20. So um, there, uh, there essentially wouldn’t be anything to
preclude developing it, uh, R-20, uh, which I thought was interesting that the
density uh, that we first started out with uh, is the same density as was in an
R-20. And, and so you could uh, without ever asking for a special use permit
the applicant could develop it as an R-20 uh, and basically do uh, many of the
things that he’s asking for in the, in the PUD permit. And, and, they, that
would uh, nothing would preclude that uh, from occurring.”
Commissioner Moyer – “He may
lose some lots because of septic…”
Commissioner Young – “I
started to say, he, he, uh, he would, would not have to ask us to modify our
setbacks uh, in, in, the uh, zoning and planning, that Ordinance.”
Chairman Hawkins – “That’s
true.”
Commissioner Young – “And,
and I, you know, I, any time you modify setbacks for one individual then you’ve
got to do it for somebody else at a later date.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Well the
uh, the, the whole idea of a, of a PUD is to, you know, is, is to help mitigate
some of that uh, where, where you give a little bit in one area, in this case
setbacks, to get open area or some other uh, uh, some other uh.”
Commissioner Messer – “But
you know something else that we’ve definitely got to look at is, if I’m correct
in hearing the numbers from uh, Luther is you know, uh, uh, sewer is about what
7,000? 700?”
Chairman Hawkins – “Little
over a mile.”
Commissioner Messer – “Well,
somewhere down the road the way property is going in Henderson County you, we
could take a developer come in here and put this sewer on this, on this parcel
of land and you know, you talking about 26 units, you know, you’re talking about
a lot more units could be on there. Then we would really have a problem as far
as, you know, I mean that’s what we’ve had in the County throughout the four
years that I’ve been on this Board. But you know then again you look at the
facts. You know I‘ve got a problem with
Commissioner Young – “Well
that’s, that’s right and, and if we don’t get the, the preferred right-of-ways
and, and the preferred access uh, in, into this development then I think it’s
gonna create problems for everybody. Uh, even the people that buys lots in this
new development. Uh, it’s gonna create a problem for. Much less the citizens
that’s already, has property on
Chairman Hawkins – “So you
don’t see any uh, any practical solution to
Commissioner Young – “Not
unless the DOT and the, is willing to buy some right-of-way and, and put a
proper State maintrain, uh, maintained road in there to carry the amount of
traffic that’s gonna be on that street. I don’t, I just, if, if it’s not done
right to start with then it’s gonna be wrong from now on.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Well
that, uh, from what I’ve heard the um, the State would have to condemn and take
the land since the property owners don’t want to do that um, which would really
get up close to their front door or front yard or walls and, and hedges so um.”
Commissioner Young – “Well if
you can’t work the traffic out then I don’t know what you’re, I mean if it
can’t be accessed properly then.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Why, why
do you think all the traffic’s gonna be on Bonner? Why, why not…”
Commissioner Young – “Well I
think
Commissioner Messer – “But if
you have an access like Mr. Moyer was talking about I mean I, you know I really
don’t see a problem in, in, you know, if the model home and everything is
located on that end, sure you’re liable to have some people coming through but
I’m sure you have people come through there every day that’s lost. So I mean
you know, uh, I mean like I said I think it’s a compromise that, that they can
work out and I don’t have a problem with it.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Well
there’s a lot of uh, I guess there’s a lot of uh, uh, fine points uh, that you
know that you could look at but uh, I, I’m sorry that. Public comment’s closed.
Um, um, it, it would certainly be good if, you know, if there was a, was a big
road on Bonner or, or, Bonner was a, was a better highway but it isn’t. And I,
I don’t think the prospects of it getting any better as far as either the
residents there wantin’ to let the State widen it or the State uh, I don’t
think the State’s ever gonna condemn the land and, and widen it because that’s
not part of their policy. And so I think uh, that street’s gonna remain like it
is for, for a very long time. Uh, and so that not withstanding uh, if, if this
uh, if this is not approved uh, uh there, there’s still uh, there’s still
opportunity to develop it as an R-20 which is uh, already on, on the zoning uh,
that, that certainly is an option. And it would have, generate the same
traffic, uh, uh, maybe a little bit less than uh, than this would but none the
less traffic. So, uh, it, it would seem that uh, uh, if uh, if we approve the
uh, special use permit uh, in accordance with the uh, uh area’s that was in
Attachment #5, uh, that we have uh, that we have gone through um, uh and, and
leave the uh, those uh, significant legal documents uh, to the County Attorney
for approval as we have in the past. Uh, that uh, it might be a reasonable
compromise to get uh, some movement in that area. I think most people are uh, uh
at least uh, uh think it’s a, it’s a, it’s better than what the land’s being
used at right now. And uh, while it may not be perfect it may be as good as we
can, uh, as good as we can get with, with what we got to work with. In that the
County don’t control roads, and uh, and so we’re, we’re really hamstrung when
it comes to dealing with DOT as to what they’ll do or what they won’t do. Uh,
so that’s, that’s kinda my uh.”
Commissioner Messer – “Are we
gonna make a decision or, tonight or we gonna?”
Chairman Hawkins – “You wanna
make a motion?”
Commissioner Messer – “Well I
guess I could, I would make a motion to
approve the plan as presented by Karen and Luther with all of these uh, with
uh, putting the main entrance on uh, uh, trying to look at this.”
Commissioner Moyer – “
Commissioner Messer – “Yeah,
South Lakes, and to try to uh, work with the people on Bonner Street as far as
public safety and etcetera to uh, approve by, recommended by, the Planning
Board. I guess I covered.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Can we
say that we really want uh, their document, Attachment #5 as modified by”
Commissioner Messer –
“Right.”
Commissioner Moyer –
“Attachment #8.”
Commissioner Messer – “Right,
and that’s what we were talking.”
Commissioner Moyer – “Plus
the condition, audition, the conditions that Grady mentioned and I”
Commissioner Messer – “Right.”
Commissioner Moyer –
“mentioned with respect to entrance.”
Commissioner Messer – “So I
guess, Amy, did you get all of that or?”
Commissioner Messer – “Yes,
plus the ones that we’ve talked about.”
Commissioner Messer –
“Right.”
Commissioner Messer – “Sound
like you got it all.”
Chairman Hawkins – “I think
you got most of it and, you could figure out how to convey the um, uh, uh, the
uh, uh, since there’s no lots gonna be sold until the, the owner may be the
homeowners association until he sells a lot then he confers or, I’m not sure
how that would work.”
Karen Smith – “Is the, I
wasn’t clear on the, whether the um, sales lot is allow, being allowed by the
Board or if they want that deferred to the Board of Adjustment.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Yeah. Do
you wanna amend your motion to allow that at the entrance you designated?”
Commissioner Messer – “That’d
be fine if like I said, or they can take…”
Chairman Hawkins – “No,
that’ll keep ‘em from having to go to the Zoning Board of Adjustment.”
Commissioner Messer –
“…Zoning Board of Adjustment. Right. That’ll be fine, I mean.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Any, any
other additions or discussion on the motion on the floor? I, I think that uh,
the other thing I’d ask maybe to just amend your motion to direct Staff to
bring those findings back at our next meeting for final approval and.”
Commissioner Messer – “The
next meeting.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Or, at
uh, on the 30th.”
Commissioner Messer – “That’s
fine.”
Commissioner Moyer – “We
really do need it on the 30th…”
Chairman Hawkins – “And, and
the, the reason for that is cause the Board will change complexions on the
first meeting in December and so the, the Board that heard the uh, the Board
that, that heard this needs to be the one that makes the decision on it so, uh,
that, that’s why the time frame. Although I guess technically we could have it
some time prior to the 6th of December. But we’ll, and, we may end
up with that but if we do we’ll deal with that. But the Board will just try to
uh, to have that done so you don’t have to go through this again. So, with that
amendment to the motion then I call the question. All in favor of that say
aye.”
Chairman Hawkins,
Commissioner Moyer, Commissioner Messer – “Aye.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Opposed.”
Commissioner Young – “No.”
Chairman Hawkins – “Okay so
the motion carries 3 – 1. Any other business before the Board?”
Commissioner Messer – “I move that we adjourn.”
Chairman Hawkins – “So
moved.”
Attest: