MINUTES
STATE
OF
The Henderson County
Board of Commissioners met for a special called meeting at 6:00 p.m. in the Bo
Thomas Auditorium at
Those present were: Chairman Bill Moyer, Vice-Chairman
Also present were:
Planner Matthew Cable, Planning Director Anthony Starr, and Associate County
Attorney Sarah Zambon.
CALL TO ORDER/WELCOME
Chairman Moyer called
the meeting to order and welcomed all in attendance. This is
a vested rights proceeding with respect to VR-2007-01, the Glens and
Commissioner McGrady
explained that he had a Clean Water Management Trust Fund meeting scheduled on
the day of the Board of Commissioners rescheduled regular
Commissioner McGrady made the motion that the Board reschedule
the August 13 meeting to August 14 subject to the availability of the
room. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
Chairman Moyer stated
that the hearing would now continue with the presentations of staff’s evidence
and called Matt Cable to the podium.
QUASI-JUDICIAL
PROCEEDING – VESTED RIGHTS APPLICATION VR-2007-01 for the Proposed Continuing
Care Retirement Community Development Known as The Glen and
Matt Cable – “Good evening Mr. Chairman,
Commissioners. Staff would like to begin
by reminding the Board that Exhibits A through G were formally entered into
record at the continuance of the hearing on May 22nd. As a reminder to the Board, Exhibit A refers
to the Board Action Form and attachments.
Exhibit B is a copy of the power-point presentation of which you’ve seen
part of already. Exhibit C is the vested
rights application materials. Exhibits
D, E and F are staff memo’s which contain recommendations regarding the
development and Exhibit G are comments from the emergency medical
services. Staff would also like to enter
Exhibit H, which has been placed at each of your seats, which included
modifications to staff recommendations and conditions contained in Exhibits E
and F should the Board wish to develop the…wish to grant the development vested
rights. If the Board would refer to
Exhibit D, when reviewing the application and the plan for development vested
rights, the Board may wish to consider the following:
The purposes of reviewing vested rights
application and site specific development plan during this public hearing
process as is outlined in the vested rights ordinance is to protect the public
health, safety and welfare.
The Henderson County 2020 Comprehensive Plan is
intended to serve as a guide for preserving and being in the best interest of
the general welfare of the humanity including the public health and safety of
the county citizens. In consistency with
the CCP among other issues may indicate that an application and plan would not
be in the best interest of the county in terms of said public health, safety
and welfare.”
Commissioner Williams – “Excuse me a minute,
where were you reading from in that. I
see exhibit D but I was not following exactly where you were.”
Matt Cable – “That’s generally a staff statement
regarding the actual vested rights ordinance.
Um, there are issues that are highlighted in Exhibit D regarding the
vested rights ordinance and what you’re needing to look at when evaluating the
applications. The CCP applies the
conservation area to the southern portion of the subject property. The RAA is also applied to the southern half
of the property and the RTA to the northern portion of the subject property.”
Chairman Moyer – “You’re on page two of Exhibit
D now basically.”
Matt Cable – “Yes. Sorry about that. The conservation area is applied to the
property largely due to the presence of steep slope. Slopes within the project site appear to be
in excess of 25 percent, with many areas in excess of 45 percent. Developing on steep slope does pose
environmental concerns particularly related to storm water runoff,
sedimentation and erosion control concerns, reduced soil stability and an
increased risk for landslides. Reduced
soil stability and increased landslide risks are a significant concern for
public health and safety as you’re well aware.
The county does not currently have any ordinances regarding steep slopes
however.”
Commissioner Williams – “Looking at this map
where the slopes…can you give some indication in terms of the proposed
structures and their proximity to those steep slopes?”
From audience – “Speak up sir”
Commissioner Williams – “Is this better? I just asked that we have some verification
on the slopes. We’re looking at the maps
as you saw up here and I’m asking simply to see the structures that are being
proposed – where they are in proximity to those slopes.
Matt Cable – “Um, this is generally on some of
the single family lots of the
Chairman Moyer – “The Boards pleasure, we will
put that off until later. Matt, go
ahead.”
Matt Cable – “Um that concludes staffs
presentation. We tried to be brief as
many of these points have been raised earlier.”
Chairman Moyer – “Okay, any questions from
Commissioners? Mr. Alexander do you have
any questions?”
Attorney William Alexander – “I do Mr. Moyer.”
Chairman Moyer – “Alright”
Attorney William Alexander – “Matt you indicated
that part of your recommendation for denial was based upon the impact of the
project on the environment. Do you have
any objective evidence or do you consider in your recommendation any objective
evidence that the development would in fact cause an adverse impact on the
environment?”
Matt Cable – “The issues which we have noted
regarding environmental impact include; sedimentation, steep slope development,
landslides, the impact of the package plant on – potentially on water quality,
also as many others indicated, the impacts on water levels in the area, as far
as, wells are concerned.”
Attorney William Alexander – “You also indicated
that your - there was inconsistent…or you were recommending denial based upon
the impact of emergency services. What
objective data, if any, have you developed that would show that it would have a
negative impact on emergency services?
Matt Cable – “Um, as was noted in Exhibit G, the
response time appears to be 14 minutes for this area already, that the
preferred response time for
Attorney William Alexander – “Has anyone in any
of the emergency services agencies of the county indicated to you it would have
a negative impact?”
Matt Cable – “They have not specifically
indicated that no.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And as to the
sedimentation issues, is your opinion on that based upon an assumed violation
of the sedimentation control regulations of the Department of Environment and
Natural Resources?”
Matt Cable – “No it would not be based on any
sort of violation that they would have already received or necessarily in the
future receive. This type of development
on this type of slope will have sedimentation issues especially during the
construction phase. It may be something
that they can mitigate but we’re not aware of how they would do that at this
point.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And so if the
development was to implement mitigation measures to control sedimentation would
that satisfy your concern on that issue?”
Matt Cable – “It would likely satisfy that in
terms of the construction phase. It
would be the post development phase where this may also remain a concern.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And isn’t it true
Matt that – that package plants are currently approved for this type of use
in…by the North Carolina Division of Water Quality?”
Matt Cable – “Yes, package plants are permitted
and they have been permitted in the county.
They all do run the same risk however for environmental impact in the
event of a flood or other type of event of that nature; a failure of the plant
itself.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Are you aware of
the redundant systems built into this proposed plant to protect against such
failures?”
Matt Cable – “No I am not specifically aware of
any of the specific systems?”
Attorney William Alexander – “And you indicated
a concern about the impact on water levels.
Did you refer to that as potential impact or actual knowledge of impact
on water level?”
Matt Cable – “At this time it would be potential
impact. As the Board is aware we’ve all
heard testimony on both sides regarding that issue.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And staying with
the water issue a moment; um, is your office been made aware, since the date of
our last hearing, that the developer has now proposed and will propose tonight
to the Board that it will install city
water from the City of Hendersonville to this project?”
Matt Cable – “Yes we have heard that. Staff would continue to be concerned with
extending public water on – based on the fact that potential impacts of
continued growth in that area as well as the issue of the fact that the Board
of Commissioners would actually have to approve that expansion and extension of
that water line.”
Attorney William Alexander – “But if in fact
city water was approved, that would eliminate the potential for damage to any
existing wells in that…and any reduction of the aquifer in that area would it
not?”
Matt Cable – “Yes”
Attorney William Alexander – “And I believe that
you indicated that the steep slopes were of concern to you because what type of
data base indicated that the area of steep slopes within this subdivision or
this development?”
Matt Cable - “We developed our steep slope map
based on the recently flown lieder data which is what they’ll use to determine the flood
boundaries and those indicated slopes in excess of 45%. Planning…within the planning profession
generally any slope in excess of 25% is considered steep.”
Attorney William Alexander – “So your
recommendation to the Board is that…that building on slopes in excess of what
percentage be restricted or denied?”
Matt Cable – “That would be in this case we have
specifically identified slopes in excess of 45% due to the amount of slopes
actually on this property, I believe as the Board is aware discussions with the
Land Development Code revolve around the 35% slope, so those are the ranges
that we generally have been considering.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And isn’t it true
when you’ve made reference to the conservation area and the CCRP that the
southern portion of the property which you’ve identified as being included in
the conservation area is also…is that portion of property which is encompassed
by the Highland Subdivision which is already approved as a major subdivision?”
Matt Cable – “Yes that area where the
conservation is applied is largely where the
Attorney William Alexander – “And isn’t it true
Mr. Card that when the application for approval of the Highlands as a major
subdivision came before the Planning Board that staff recommended approval of
the Highlands at that time?”
Matt Cable – “Yes staff did recommend approval
of the
Attorney William Alexander – “That’ll be all my
questions. Excuse me my co-council has
questions.”
Attorney Angela Beeker – “You’re going to get
double whammed, sorry. I’d like to talk
to you about the new Land Development Code a little bit. You had said that apartment dwellings, which
we’re calling independent living units, would not be allowed in the R3
district, is that right?”
Matt Cable – “Correct”
Attorney Angela Beeker – “Okay, but they would
be allowed if they were a part of an assisted living facility, is that
correct?”
Matt Cable – “If the units were an assisted
living facility which would be classification from the state yes they would be
allowed.”
Attorney Angela Beeker – “Okay, or if they were
um maybe a hospice residential care facility or something like that, multi
family units would be allowed, is that correct?’
Matt Cable - “Yes and that would be allowed with
a special use permit in those cases.”
Attorney Angela Beeker – Okay, isn’t it true
that CCRC’s, Continuing Care Retirement Communities are also allowed in the R3
district?”
Matt Cable – “Yes, CCRC’s are allowed in the R3
district.”
Attorney Angela Beeker – “Okay, thank you.”
Chairman Moyer – “Attorney Massagee do you have any
questions?”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “I do not sir.”
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Cherry, is Mr. Cherry here
this evening? Do you have any questions
sir? Mr. Knowlton?”
Bill Knowlton – “No questions sir.”
Chairman Moyer – “Okay, Mr. Erb and Ms.
McDowell? Okay thank you very much
Matt. We will now move into – we’re
going to have some rebuttal testimony and we’ll start with the applicant. I’ll ask him to try to limit his time to 10
to 15 minutes in rebuttal, which he’s agreed to do so we will...”
Attorney William Alexander – “Per witness”
Chairman Moyer – “No, not per witness, come on.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Moyer we have
eight witnesses or several witnesses for tonight and there’s no physical way
that they can present their testimony in that length of time and I would
respectively remind the Board that when we came back from the last hearing that
after Mr. Massagee’s client had closed his evidence in the previous hearing
that he was allowed to admit testimony from not only an expert um or alleged
two expert witnesses, my recollection, that took substantially more time than
that. We don’t believe we have prepared
to rebut the testimony in part of those witnesses and there’s no possible way
we can do it in ten minutes. I mean we
have…we have streamlined and tried to prepare ourselves to move it along as rapidly
as possible but we just”
Chairman Moyer – “Go ahead and we’ll be the
judge…you know we don’t provide for rebuttal but I’ll give you as much lead way
as we can.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright, if you
please, we call William Lapsley. Also to
streamline this we’re going to a little bit of it by question/answer form as
opposed to a narrative testimony.”
Chairman Moyer – “Alright”
Attorney William Alexander – “Um, and if…you’ll
recall Mr. Lapsley was previously sworn, has testified in this proceeding, has
previously submitted an affidavit to this proceeding and his testimony will be
limited today. Mr. Lapsley, you are
currently the owner and manager of William G. Lapsley and Associates, P.A. is
that correct?”
William Lapsley – “That’s correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And you…you have
been retained as the supervising engineer for that project known as the Glen,
the applicant in this proceeding?”
William Lapsley – “That is correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “In the scope and
course of your employment, did you supervise the design of and the requirements
of the private water system originally proposed for this system?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir that’s correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And as I think has
been indicated that system is to depend on two or more wells on the property to
produce a maximum capacity of 90,000 gallons of potable water per day?”
William Lapsley – That’s correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And also
installation of a water tank at the site specified on our graphic plan for the
storing of water and sufficient capacity to meet the state regulations for
human consumption, as well as, fire protection?”
William Lapsley – “That is correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And Mr. Lapsley
the various details relative to the private water system originally proposed
have been included, have they not, in a supplemental affidavit which you’ve
reviewed and signed?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir that’s correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And also the…since
the time of the last meeting have you had occasion to explore with the…in
response to the concerns of the public relative to effect…potential effect on
wells in that area, the availability of public water to this site?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir I have met with the
City of
Attorney William Alexander – “And before I go
into the details of that Mr. Lapsley there was testimony received, from Mr.
Massagee’s client I believe, about the…doing draw down test on adjoining wells
if we pursue the private water systems and under standard engineering
principals, as applied by your office and as would be applied in this project,
would you conduct draw…simultaneous draw down tests on wells within some
reasonable proximity of this site?”
William Lapsley – “I think only if we suspect or
the State of North Carolina suspects that there may be a impact of the new well
that the…that my client would propose to drill on any neighboring well.”
Attorney William Alexander – “If my clients
indicated to the Commission that they were willing to perform simultaneous draw
down tests on all wells requested by individual property owners within a
thousand foot radius of this site could that be accomplished?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir it can”
Attorney William Alexander – “Going back to the
city water sir, did you as part of your process with the city review the availability
of water from the city, review the current facilities available to serve this
site and actually do estimates of the various construction cost and materials
and labor necessary to reach this site with city water?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir I did”
Attorney William Alexander – “And in the course
of that conversation or that investigation and analysis did you determine that
city water could be run to this site in an amount sufficient to serve this site
for the sum of $1,339,300.00?
William Lapsley – “I think there needs to be a
clarification. The cost to, as you
stated, that the estimated cost to serve…to extend city water to provide
sufficient capacity just for this site, the estimate was $1,339,300.00. I also made an estimate to enlarge that system,
if you will, to meet the master plan needs as expressed to me by the City of
Attorney William Alexander – “And is it your
knowledge, based upon review of the city’s current master plan that it is their
plan to ultimately, whether we’re there or not, to extend a twelve inch water
line to this area?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir that’s correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And did you enter
into a series of conversations with Lee Smith from the City of Hendersonville
Water and Sewer Department relative to a cost sharing on this project?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir I did.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And have you
reached a preliminary understanding and agreement with Lee Smith that my
clients would expend the sum of $1,339,300.00 on the total installation cost of
$2,023,200.00?”
William Lapsley – “We have…I have expressed that
to Mr. Smith in a letter dated June 19, 2007.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And I ask you sir
if you would identify…is the letter in which I’m showing you dated June 19,
2007, is that your letter to Mr. Smith?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir it is”
Attorney William Alexander – “And attached to
that is…is that your estimate of cost of construction?”
William Lapsley – “yes sir”
Attorney William Alexander – “Jason if you would
hand out those please. Matt if somebody
or somebody would distribute these. And
also give the affidavit away – supplemental affidavit. Mr. Lapsley – show you and ask you to
identify this supplemental affidavit reflects your testimony on these issues,
is that your signature there on them?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir it is”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright, Mr. Moyer
I have other testimony relevant to the siltation issue that Matt commented on a
minute ago.”
Chairman Moyer – “Bill before you do that have
you given copies to the other parties?”
Attorney William Alexander – “We will right now
sir.”
Chairman Moyer – “So Mr. Massagee and the others
have them.”
Attorney William Alexander – “I hope we have
enough we brought about ten or twelve, give them what you have there and I’ll
give them mine. Alright we would…one more
question Mr. Lapsley. Mr. Lapsley are
you uh…Matt had indicated the possible impact of siltation um coming from this
site either during or after construction.
Based on your knowledge of this type of project and this particular
project as a supervising engineer, do you have an opinion as to whether or not
mitigation measures can be installed to control the siltation?”
William Lapsley – “I think it’s certainly
possible to design a system that’s consistent with the standards required by
the State of
Attorney William Alexander – “And in fact are
they required by the Department of Environment and Natural Resources or some
division thereof to have a sedimentation and control plan?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir the North Carolina
Division of Land Quality at the moment oversees that.”
Attorney William Alexander – “That’s all the
questions I have of Mr. Lapsley.”
Chairman Moyer – “Bill…just a minute. Mr. Lapsley the estimate you gave on running
water – the cost estimates, does that include all the water for fire
protection?”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir, there’s two numbers,
as I’ve stated, one was for a ten inch water line which is the minimum size
that I believe is necessary to provide adequate domestic supply and fire
protection…”
Chairman Moyer – “and fire that’s what I needed
to know.”
William Lapsley – “to the site and then the
second estimate is to enlarge the line to twelve inch which was the
recommendation from the city and their master plan and the same issue with
regard to the size of the water tank.”
Chairman Moyer – “With regards to getting the
city to run the water line did you look at the comprehensive plan to see what –
which of our districts this is in?”
William Lapsley – “No sir I focused on
discussion with the city as to whether it would possible to extend water to the
site and what size line would be necessary to do that.”
Chairman Moyer – “So you don’t have any opinion
with respect to whether it would require the consent of the Board of
Commissioners for them to do that?”
William Lapsley – “No it’s my understanding that
the Board of Commissioners would have to approve that.”
Chairman Moyer – “Alright. Any other questions from the Board?”
Attorney William Alexander – “I needed to know
if there was any other cross?
Attorney Boyd Massagee – (Spoke but not
intelligible because he did not come to the mic).
Attorney William Alexander – “We want to follow
the previous procedure Mr. Moyer where we wait to the end.”
Chairman Moyer – “Yes, okay”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright, we’d like
to make the Board aware that we will be tendering at the time of closing uh…the
uh…some specific conditions which my clients have – are willing to except
without question in this project; one of which would be that if the system of
city water can be installed for the sum of $1,339,000.00 contributed by us that
we will so do which hopefully will belay some of these folks concern. Um, we’d like to call Juanita James.”
Russ Burrell – “Could you spell her name
please?”
Attorney William Alexander – “Yes it’s
J-U-A-N-I-T-A Juanita James J-A-M-E-S.
Ms. James is – you’re employed by James and James Environmental
Management,
Juanita James – “Yes it is.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And Ms. James in
the scope…in what capacity are you retained there?”
Juanita James – “I’m co-owner.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And is that
company licensed by the State of
Juanita James – “Yes we are.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And specifically
Juanita James – “That is correct.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And Ms. James in –
did we request, my clients request of you that that you perform a feecal call
form test on the water in Mud Creek at three different locations here last week?”
Juanita James – “Yes that is true.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And did you in
fact perform a feecal call form test right at the Blue Star Camp package plant
discharge into Mud Creek?”
Juanita James – “Yes about twenty feet below”
Attorney William Alexander – “And did you also
perform a test in Mud Creek at
Juanita James – “Yes I did.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And did you also
perform a test of Mud Creek at
Juanita James – “That is correct.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Now what was the –
you measured these tests with presence of feecal call form based on colonies
per hundred milliliter, is that correct?”
Juanita James – “That is correct.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And is it true
ma’am that the state recognizes essentially zero through two hundred result as
being water that is suitable for drinking… no…excuse me not for drinking…but
for fishing, swimming that type of thing?”
Juanita James – “Yes sir that’s true.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And that on up to
four hundred is considered a maximum daily presence?”
Juanita James – “That is correct.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And what result
did you get immediately below the Blue Star Camp discharge?”
Juanita James – “We got ninety six colonies per
one hundred mills of sample.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And is that within
the states standards for regulation of a package treatment plant?”
Juanita James – “Yes it’s within the state
allowable limits.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And what result
did you get at
Juanita James – “Eighty four colonies per one
hundred mills.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And what result
did you get at
Juanita James – “Three hundred and eighty
colonies per one hundred mills.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Now was – when you
did this test was the Blue Star package plant running full blast essentially?”
Juanita James – “Yes it was at a strong
discharge.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Now if there was
an environmental problem, if this plant was not operating as intended to and as
regulated from your experience what type of result would you have gotten below
the discharge plant?”
Juanita James – “If a facility was not operating
properly we would be in the thousands in the count. Three to Four Thousand with the dilution
process of the twenty feet applied.”
Attorney William Alexander – “So did this test
indicate to you that that uh that that plant was functioning properly?”
Juanita James – “Yes sir”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright do you
know of any other package plants between there and
Juanita James – “No sir”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright now ma’am
in your experience…your firm is retained from time to time to monitor various
package plants is that correct?”
Juanita James – “Um, yes we’re a contract
operations for water and waste water.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And in the course
of doing that how often are these plants required to monitor the waste water?”
Juanita James – “Daily”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright, and…”
Juanita James – “Daily Monday through Friday.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright so five
out of seven days a week you’ll are out testing water to ensure the plants are
operating correctly?”
Juanita James – “That is correct.”
Attorney William Alexander – “So if my clients
installed a plant that was permitted by the State of
Juanita James – “That is correct.”
Attorney William Alexander – “So if a – if an
accident occurred, which we certainly don’t think it will hope it won’t, but it
an accident occurred is that something which in your opinion with legal lawful
monitoring would be detected virtually immediately?”
Juanita James – “Oh yes sir.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright and ma’am
have you summarized the results of your finding in a letter addressed to
William G. Lapsley and Associates?”
Juanita James – “Yes I have.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And is that the
same letter that’s in front of you?”
Juanita James – “Yes it is.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright Jason
would you hand that out please. Did the
Board have any questions of her, I’m sorry?”
Commissioner Williams – “I had one question and
perhaps you may have mentioned this but in terms of the higher count on down
stream, what was – just any indication as to why you suspect there was a higher
count on down the stream?”
Juanita James – “Any free flowing body of water,
whether it be a stream, a pond, a lake, has the potential for nature to deposit
feecal matter into the water and that is a very highly populated area for
animals and so raccoons, deer, anything that’s a warm blooded animal could
easily have caused that to be a higher number um with the runoff with rains,
anything like that can cause the feecal count to change in the water supply and
as was expressed this is not above the four hundred daily max even at that, so
it was still was not exorbitant numbers.”
Commissioner Williams – “Thank you.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Thank you. We call Mr. Forrest Westall. Mr. Westall, are you a licensed professional
engineer?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes”
Attorney William Alexander – “And are you
employed by McGill and Associates Engineering?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes”
Attorney William Alexander – “And in the uh is
that the same firm which has these applied for the permits for a package –
sewerage treatment plant for my clients The Glen?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes on behalf of your
clients.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright now Mr.
Westall…”
Chairman Moyer – “Bill have these last two
witnesses been sworn?”
Attorney William Alexander – “Um”
Chairman Moyer – “I don’t remember this
gentlemen being…”
Attorney William Alexander – “Ms. James could
you step back up please.”
Chairman Moyer – “Terry, do you know how to do,
Terry”
Attorney William Alexander – “With them all at
once here, let me see”
Chairman Moyer – “Yes if you can do them all at
once it would save us…”
Attorney William Alexander – “Would Mr. Wibble
stand…Wible stand please where you are, um Mr. Hepler has previously been sworn
I believe, Mr. Hepler’s been sworn previously.
You may have to do him separately.
That’s all we’ll have that haven’t been sworn.”
Chairman Moyer – “Just have them raise their
hand Terry”
Deputy Clerk Terry Wilson – “Do you swear or
affirm that the testimony you shall give to the Board of Commissioners shall be
the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?”
In unison – “I do”
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Moyer, are you
satisfied about Ms. James or do you want her to verify that the testimony that
she has rendered is true?”
Chairman Moyer – “She can make that statement,
that’s fine.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Ms. James. Ms. James you have just taken an oath that
your testimony rendered to this Board is truthful. Is the testimony that you have already
received truthful – given?”
Juanita James – “Yes”
Attorney William Alexander – “Thank you”
Chairman Moyer – “That’s fine, thank you.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Uh, Mr. Westall
would you just briefly give the Board a little bit of your background in the
area of sewerage treatment facilities including your professional
qualifications?”
Forrest Westall – “Uh yes, I worked for the
North Carolina Division of Water Quality from 1976 until 19…until 2004. I was employed as the regional water quality
supervisor in the Asheville Regional office that covered the nineteen western
counties out of the Ashville area where all waste water treatment management,
spills, water quality management in general and I joined McGill Associates in
2005 and have been with them since that time.
I have a BS in uh Civil Engineering from NC State and a Masters Degree
in Civil Engineering from NC State.”
Chairman Moyer – “I think you may need to speak
up just a little bit as you go forward so the people in the back can hear you.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Uh, Mr. Westall
would you explain to the Board just basically the type of system that is
proposed for this particular facility, particularly concentrating on the design
standards of that system, redundant design standards to ensure against
accidental discharge or problems?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes the uh waste water
treatment system proposed for the Glen would be a biological waste water
treatment system uh commonly used for uh treatment of human uh commercial and
domestic waste water. Uh those systems uh
utilize uh reaction tanks and they produce uh…uh um removal of biochemical
oxygen man to suspended solids ammonium and other common pollutants. The State of
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Westall, I
believe you mentioned this but is standby power in case of power outages
required?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes”
Attorney William Alexander – “And to your
knowledge is the system that would be proposed for this facility one that would
require certified operators for the facility as part of the on going permitting
process?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes”
Attorney William Alexander – “And is
reporting…are there reporting and monitoring requirements under the permitting
process as, as the system continues to operate over the years for this
project?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes, there’s monitoring
requirements uh daily during the five days of the week and there’s uh notification
requirements for anytime…anytime there’s a problem at the waste water plant uh
their…their requirement is that they notify the Division of Water Quality
immediately or the State Warning Point uh…uh which is a uh 24 hour manned
station that’s run through the uh Department of Crime Control and Public
Safety.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And do the state
regulating agencies also do a…have inspection and compliance procedures?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes”
Attorney William Alexander – “Um, sir some
concerns have been voiced relative to this um particular um site for use of a
package treatment plant on the issue of odor from the plant. Uh can you uh explain to the Board please,
what and if any odors are associated with operation of one of these plants?”
Forrest Westall – “A properly operated
biological waste water treatment system uh does not have offensive odors uh one
of the requirements in the standards uh for design minimum design criteria that
there is no more quality hazards to require that the facility be constructed in
a way that it not cause nuisance and obviously odor would be a problem associated
with that. The setback requirements are
also associated with that. Uh if they…if
the treatment system is not properly operated or maintained you could have
other problems.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And Mr. Westall
also is the…there have been issues of concern expressed about noise from one of
these systems. Would you explain uh on
that issue for the Commissioners?”
Forrest Westall – “Noise is uh obviously an
issue with waste water treatment plants.
They require several large motors and pumps and different mechanical uh devices
that do make noise. Uh standard
engineering design does provide uh mechanisms for mitigating that noise. Again, the setback requirements are critical
but also the housing of those…of that equipment uh…the uh…the uh foundation
that are placed under those equipment and generally uh just the operational
components can be managed by buffering and other things so that the noise
should not be an issue uh within the setback requirements for the waste water
treatment plant.”
Attorney William Alexander – “In fact are
portions of this system installed either underground or right at ground level?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes many of the systems are
the pumps and other return pumps and uh facilities associated with getting the
waste water into the plant are often below ground. The uh systems that are required for uh….uh…uh
for…for providing aeration those blowers are placed at ground level and often
in order to prevent noise they will provide additional foundation and sit them
below the level of the ground and provide covers over them.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Sir there was
testimony received by the Commissioners um to the effect that there had been
hundreds of violations recorded for this type of plant in
Forrest Westall – “Well uh the waste water
treatment NPDES permits for these type systems are in excess of forty pages
long. They have a series of requirements
in there including monitoring requirements for all the things that are limited
for plus reporting requirements on items that are not limited. Uh there is a requirement that those reports
be submitted every…every month on time.
There’s a requirement that every perimeter be monitored for in those
permits. Uh it is true that uh there are
violations of these permits uh from existing facilities. In the majority of…of those cases, those
violations are due to missing a monitoring requirement, not reporting on time,
or some other what I would call a technical violation. There are violations of limits which would be
biochemical oxygen, manned BOD, total suspended solids, flow, ammonium nitrogen
and those violations are reported to the state and the state reviews those on a…on
a essentially a continuous basis to take enforcement action associated with
those so uh the majority of the monitoring violations, the majority of the
violations that are reported are monitoring violations; failure to monitor a
particular perimeter. That in no way
indicates that the discharge during that period of time had an adverse impact
on water quality.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Westall staff
has indicated to the Commissioners that the basis of one of their objections to
this particular project is that it does use a package treatment facility, which
I assume would mean in opposition to or instead of individual sanitary septic
sewage systems. If, based on your
experience as a design engineer and your experience with the state of North
Carolina, on this site which is approximately a hundred and fifty acres…a
hundred and twenty eight acres, if multiple…a hundred plus septic systems were
installed to serve various residences would the impact of that on the
environment equal or exceed the impact of a package treatment facility?”
Forrest Westall – “It could obviously if you
have a hundred and twenty home sites on a particular piece of property and they’re
on a septic system the same amount of waste water is being generated and
disposed of and managed the same way it would with a package treatment
plant. A failure of a septic tank system
or subsurface onsite waste water disposal system could have environmental and
public health impacts associated with the property next to it and anyone that
lives downstream. The failure of a waste
water treatment plant, particularly in relationship to enteric bacteria or
bacteria that causes human disease, could also have an impact but essentially
the same amount of waste water is being managed with onsite systems or with a
package treatment system; and the word package is a term that’s used often but
the same biological treatment processes that the City of Hendersonville uses is
the same biological treatment processes that these units use, they’re called
package units because they’re small and they can be brought in usually by large
flatbed trucks and that’s why they’re referred to as package plants.”
Attorney William Alexander – “So is this
proposed plant in essence a miniature City of
Forrest Westall – “It’s a miniature biological
treatment system similar to all the municipalities that discharge across the
State of
Attorney William Alexander – “Tendering view for
your questions.”
Chairman Moyer – “Does the Board have any
questions?”
Commissioner McGrady – “Yes just one, um you
mentioned um the use of…the need to use certified operators for the plant. Um how might the applicant provide for
certified operators for this plant in your…based on your knowledge of how this
plants are typically run?”
Forrest Westall – “Uh Mr. McGrady that
typically…and…and there’s about two choices; one you hire your own operator,
they work for the company similar to what
Commissioner McGrady – “Thank you for that
explanation.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Thank you sir, I
do need you wait just one minute…I would call Dan – is it Wible or Wibble…Wible? I’d like to indicate to the Commissioners
that Mr. Wible is a professional engineer employed by Kay Hill Associates um and
who has been retained by my client to do uh some studies on the issue of storm
water uh retention and storm water control on this site. Uh Kay Hill and Associates is a nationally
recognized firm in this area, is certified by a group called LEED which I think
Mr. McGrady is probably familiar with.
I’ll ask Dan to expound on Kay Hill and Associates amongst other credits
has uh previously written the best management practices manual for storm water
control for the state of Pennsylvania I believe, um has uh is currently writing
one for the state of Michigan and is also…has been employed um fairly
extensively here in North Carolina by the University of North Carolina in
Chapel Hill to do some enervative projects in storm water retention. The purpose of this testimony is address the
concerns of…stated in the defense testimony particularly relating to uh the
issues of depletion of the aquifer; how water can be returned to the aquifer,
and also uh to offer some testimony relative to siltation issues. I’m going to indicate to the Board that my
client will be submitting to you later in this proceeding a uh set of, what
we’ll refer to, agreed upon conditions which would require my clients in
developing this site to implement storm water retention control methods on the
site which will keep…which will prevent storm water from leaving the site in
excess of those amounts estimated to currently leave the site in it’s natural
state. With that I would tender Mr.
Wible to…”
Russ Burrell – “Would you spell his name please
as well?”
Dan Wible – “As Bill said my name is Dan Wible.”
Russ Burrell – “Spell his name please.”
Dan Wible – “I’m a professional engineer.”
Chairman Moyer – “Would you spell your name
please?”
Dan Wible – “I’m sorry it’s W-I-B-L-E.”
Terry Wilson – “Thank you”
Dan Wible – “I am a professional engineer and
I’m also accredited by the US Green Building Councils LEED program and LEED
stands for Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design. It’s a set of standards that was developed um
probably about eight or nine years ago by the US Green Building Council uh to uh
give uh credit to green building um and there’s a whole bunch of standards
mostly relating to energy efficiency for building, but there’s also a number of
site credits as well, especially for storm water management. Uh Kay Hill and Associates have been there
now seven years. I’ve focused my efforts
on sustainable site design and storm water management. Uh I have a BS in Civil Engineering from
Attorney William Alexander – “If I could ask you
Dan, if this Board was to impose on my clients a condition of this project that
it develop and submit for review to whatever entity the Planning Board or
otherwise, and engineered program for storm water retention that is designed to
return or keep on the site storm water in sufficient capacities to prevent
discharge from the site of storm waters in excess of it’s current natural
state, do you believe that’s possible?”
Dan Wible – “Yes I do”
Attorney William Alexander – “And in fact, even
though we frankly don’t want to commit to this, is it possible on some sites to
retain virtually all the storm water?”
Dan Wible – “It’s possible to retain on site
most storms that occur in any given year.”
Attorney William Alexander – Alright, but the
normal storm water leaving the site would be what would be feeding the creek
down below the site wouldn’t it? Alright
sir the same, you have some experience in sedimentation control?”
Dan Wible – “Correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “Would the same
features which you have described relative to storm water retention, could they
be used to accomplish sedimentation control on the site both during
construction and after construction as an ongoing facility?”
Dan Wible – “Uh, some of them could be utilized
for uh temporary erosion control.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And there has been
concern expressed by Planning Staff to the Board about potential for building
on steep slopes within this project, if…assuming…if a person was going to build
a house or other structure on a slope in excess of 35%, in your opinion, can
mitigation measures be engineered designed to slow the acceleration of water
down on those steep slopes to a point where there’s not undue damage done to
the environment?”
Dan Wible – “Yes I believe it can.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And so if this
Board was to impose a condition on my client that in any building on slopes in
excess of 35% that they first submit a certified engineers plan for mitigation
of storm water acceleration and runoff; that’s something that your firm or any
other qualified firm could do?”
Dan Wible – “Yes it is.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Did I miss
anything? You want to say something
else? I have one other question sir. If
this project is on city water not in any fashion depleting the aquifer with
private wells and if this project is returning to the soil storm water in
sufficient capacities that it does not exceed…the runoff doesn’t exceed what comes
off of it in its natural state that in fact the…the aquifer would not affected
at all by the presence of this site would it?”
Dan Wible – “That’s correct.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And if in fact we
go beyond that we might in fact improve the aquifer, if we retain all the storm
water?”
Chairman Moyer – “Wo-wo, let’s…Bill you have an
exhibit with any of this?”
Attorney William Alexander – “Um, no just his
testimony Mr. Moyer. We do have a um
a…in our proposed conditions a condition that relates to this issue.”
Chairman Moyer – “Alright”
Attorney William Alexander – “Does the Board
have any questions for Dan?”
Chairman Moyer – “Next witness”
Attorney William Alexander – “We call Thomas
Hepler please. Alright um we have one
witness that got delayed in traffic on the interstate that we’re hoping that he
will arrive here in a minute. Um, I’m
going to call Richard Grant please. Mr.
Grant you are currently the uh President of Beverly Grant Incorporated which is
the contractor concerned to develop this site, correct?”
Richard Grant – “Yes I am.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And also an owner
of the LLC which owns this site?”
Richard Grant – “Yes I am.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And sir are
you…have you retained Edwards and Associates as architects to design the
structures on this project?”
Richard Grant – “Yes I have.”
Attorney William Alexander – “In the course of
that did you ask them to provide for you and have you reviewed within your own
construction knowledge the uh the fire classifications for this building and
the uh types of materials that are required and other systems that are required
to meet those fire requirements?”
Richard Grant – “Yes”
Attorney William Alexander – “And sir I show you
an affidavit uh entitled Affidavit and Support of Vested Rights application as
to fire related construction issues, have you examined and signed that
affidavit?”
Richard Grant – “Yes I have.”
Attorney William Alexander – “The facts
contained in that affidavit true sir?”
Richard Grant – “Yes they are.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Attached to that
affidavit is a specific list of fire um…uh construction methods and other
issues, could you briefly summarize those for the Commissioners?”
Richard Grant – “Basically this building per the
North Carolina building code will be either a type 1B or a type 2A depending on
the type of structural frame that we use and basically those codes outline all
the uh protections that floors would have a two hour fire rating. All stairwells will have a two hour fire
rating. Interior materials will be metal
studs and fire rated sheetrock. There
will be no combustible materials used in the construction of the structure
itself; and is planned going along with that any combustible materials used in
things such as draperies or carpets are also required to have set flame spread
ratings and also uh the amount of smoke that they can generate. In addition to that the HVAC systems have
smoke detectors in the duct work that shut down the HVAC systems if there’s any
smoke anywhere in the buildings. Also,
the buildings are…have to be equipped with a fire protection system and the
systems are constructed to automatically notify the fire department if there’s
any smoke or temperature sensed.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Does the entire
building have a sprinkler system in it?”
Richard Grant – “Yes it does.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And based on the
graphic plan, which we submitted, is this uh the main building as shown on that
plan connected to the smaller buildings or all those main buildings connected
with what we refer to I think as skywalks?”
Richard Grant – “Yes they are.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And in…in what
methods of exit would the resident’s of these buildings have uh in the event of
a fire?”
Richard Grant – “There are multiply stairwells
which are again two hour rated so they could be in that stairwell for two hours
after the fire started uh before flames would spread into that area. They also have the ability to go to the other
buildings that are…they are connected to.”
Attorney William Alexander – “So in the event of
a fire the resident’s would have the ability in those stairwells and through
the skywalks to seek safe harbor if there was a four or five minute delay in
the fire department getting there.”
Richard Grant – “That’s correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And um Mr. Grant have…has
you or Jerry Grant your partner had discussions with the local fire department
about its ability to uh serve this building?”
Richard Grant – “Yes we have.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And…and what is
the height of the highest building…main building?
Richard Grant – “I think it’s…I think its
forty-two feet to the top floor.”
Attorney William Alexander – “But in any event
sir is it less than eighty-five feet?”
Richard Grant – “Yes it is.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright, questions
of the Board? No, I move to admit his
affidavit. Alright, Mr. Tim Garren, is Mr. Garren present? Can you come up here?”
Chairman Moyer – “For the record, Mr. Garren spoke
with me several days ago and asked if it would be appropriate for him to appear
and I said I thought it was important that the factual information that he had
might be good for the record and that he should appear if called so if the
Board questions that…that’s what I did.”
Attorney William Alexander – “I’d also like to
indicate for the record that…that we have uh been in communication with Mr.
Garren and requested that he be present to do so.”
Commissioner Williams – “Just also…also as a
matter of record I mean I guess that you are going to point out that he is the
fire chief at Valley Hill.”
Attorney William Alexander – “He needs to be
sworn please.”
Chairman Moyer – “Do it right from there Terry.”
Terry Wilson – “Okay, thank you. Do you swear or affirm that you testimony you
shall give to the Board of County Commissioners shall be the truth the whole
truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?”
Tim Garren – “I do”
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Garren your
name is Tim Garren correct?”
Tim Garren – “Yes sir”
Attorney William Alexander – “And you’re
Battalion Chief at Valley Hill Fire Department?”
Tim Garren – “That’s correct.”
Attorney William Alexander – “In scope and
course of those duties sir you do serve that site on
Tim Garren - “Yes we do.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Now sir have you
had occasion to uh review with, I believe, Jerry Grant from uh Beverly Grant
the specifics relative to construction of this building?”
Tim Garren – “Yes we have.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And sir there…Mr.
Richard Grant just testified and submitted an affidavit relative to this
building having to be constructed in compliance with the North Carolina state
building code and particularly with two particular fire code references, are
you generally familiar with those types of construction requirements on these
buildings?”
Tim Garren – “Yes we are.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And Mr. Garren
there’s been a lot of testimony and opinions rendered here that that Valley
Hill might not be able to respond quickly enough to this project with a ladder
truck sufficient to serve people in the upstairs portions of the main building,
also been the concern stated that Valley Hill might not have a ladder truck
with sufficient height to reach the main floor of this building, could you
address those issues for us?”
Tim Garren – “Um, we do have a ladder truck, the
total height of the truck counting the ladder and the truck would be a total of
eighty five feet, there’s a seventy five foot ladder, the truck itself is 10
foot. Um response time, response time
would be probably less than two minutes because we have a station out on Crab
Creek a half a mile from the project.
However, the ladder truck we keep stationed at headquarters which all I
can do is I use the formula that the state has that they use to figure travel
time for us. It’s based at thirty five
miles an hour. So based and using that
formula the response time, my opinion, the response time from headquarters to
this construction site depending on traffic, weather and the driver would be
anywhere from eight to eleven minutes.
We have three stations that’s manned 24 hours a day 7 days a week.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Sir in your
experience is a building that is constructed as this one would be from
essentially non-combustible materials in the structure and fire retardant
materials in the surface uh condition of the building uh, be susceptible to a
rapidly proceeding fire?”
Tim Garren – “I, we do not see it being a
rapidly…fire. It wouldn’t burn rapid.”
Attorney William Alexander – “So would it be…do
you have an opinion sir in the event of a fire as to whether or not Valley Hill
could respond in an adequate time to uh prevent uh undo loss of life?”
Tim Garren – “It…It’s our opinion that in the
event of a fire we could have personnel on the scene to prevent loss of life, I
mean we have a station a half a mile from it and have two other stations on the
way.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Would it be true
sir that there are other areas within the Valley Hill fire district that are
substantially more remote from the services of your department than this site?”
Tim Garren – “Yes we have further outlying
district. Our district runs to the
county line on Crab Creek.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And sir I believe
that Valley Hill has expressed the desire, if this project is approved, to have
a uh…what I call a dry hydrant I don’t know what it’s really called, located in
the pond or storm water retention facilities on the property?”
Tim Garren – “During the meetings with the
developers before the water issue come up, which I’ll take the water line
that’s hydrants, but what we can do we take a pond and we put what we call a
dry hydrant in to us the dry hydrant is the same thing as a hydrant. Because we can send an engine company to the
dry hydrant, the attack engine goes to the fire scene, they lay a line between
each other, the one truck sucks water out of the pond straight to the engine
and it’s the same thing as having a hydrant and they did discuss and I asked
during the develop, if any ponds on site, could we put in dry hydrants and they
agreed to it, paying the cost.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And Mr. Garren do
you have an opinion as to whether or not the installation of a uh 10 inch or 12
inch um city water line from the City of Hendersonville that its current
terminus which I believe is up there near uh Beaumont Estates somewhere out to
this project would benefit fire protection for resident’s along Crab Creek
Road?”
Tim Garren – “It is my opinion that it would…if
they extend the water line out Crab Creek that is nothing but a benefit to us,
as far as the hydrants go; because pressurized hydrants right now we have hydrants
that run Kanuga and stop at Little River Road. That’s where they stop at so an
extension of the water line would be an addition of hydrants for us. ”
Attorney William Alexander – “And in the event
of a major fire would the availability of water from the city water system make
your ability to recharge trucks fighting fire away from that city water system
quicker?”
Tim Garren – “It helps…it’s a closer run to fill
tankers but we have a lot of…out in the Crab Creek area we have a lot of static
water spots, which is the dry hydrant spots, usually no more than 2 miles,
every 2 miles, we’ll have a static water spot somewhere out there.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Sir your
department, I believe, also runs uh in conjunction with all the other
departments in the county with what’s referred to as First Responders System,
is that right?”
Tim Garren – “The medical first responder?”
Attorney William Alexander – “Yes”
Tim Garren – “Yes that’s correct.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And so when…when
somebody calls in with a medical emergency the Sheriff’s Department or someone
notifies you’ll, you know , of the location and you’ll send a team out?”
Tim Garren – “Alright if someone calls 911 the
appropriate fire department is sent out with
Attorney William Alexander – “How long do you uh
would you estimate it would take your medical first responder team to reach the
site of the Glen?”
Tim Garren – “If he’s in the station and not at
a call probably less than 2 minutes, if he’s not already out on a call, which
the stations only a half a mile from this project site.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And if there
wasn’t someone at this project site and someone had to come from the main
station in Valley Hill would it be essentially the same response time as the
fire truck, 9 to 11 minutes?”
Tim Garren – “Probably anywhere from 8 to 11
minutes but my opinion it would be a little quicker because we run small trucks
on medical calls, suburban’s.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And the small
trucks can be run a little bit faster than the big ones?”
Tim Garren – “Yes I mean you just…common since
will tell you that.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright, excuse me
just one second. My co-council will ask
next.”
Attorney Angela Beeker – “Could you explain to
the Board what a mutual aid agreement is and if you’ll have one in place?”
Tim Garren – “Okay there’s two types, there’s
automatic aid and there’s mutual aid.
Most all fire department in the county are teamed up with another fire
department and if anything structural related calls, if Valley Hill was
dispatched to any time of structural related call in our district,
Attorney Angela Beeker – “I wanted to ask you a
little bit about
Tim Garren – “Yes we do.”
Attorney Angela Beeker – “Okay does that present
a concern to you…the condition of the road, the curves, the traffic, is that a
major concern to you in providing fire services to this project?”
Tim Garren – “Not on
Attorney Angela Beeker – “Why isn’t
Tim Garren – “It’s paved and wide and you know
it’s up to each drive. They got to look
at the road and take their time and drive according…according to the road.”
Attorney Angela Beeker – “If you run a fire
truck with the lights and sirens on what does the traffic tend to…does the
traffic…how does…how does traffic respond?”
Tim Garren – “When we’re running emergency
traffic, which is light and sirens, all we’re doing is asking for the right of
way. Most people slow and pull to the
right if possible and we proceed to go around them.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Does the Board
have any further…any questions for him?
Mr. Young”
Commissioner Young – “Mr. Garren uh if the city
runs a water line out there how often would they place a fire hydrant in that
line?”
Tim Garren – “It’s…It’s usually within every
thousand feet. It’s usually not over
thousand feet. That’s the standard that
we usually get because we carry a thousand feet of five inch supply line on
each engine so we can lay up to a thousand foot of hose. So it’s usually not over a thousand
feet. Now I don’t know if they have
other standards they go by but normally it’s…it’s not over a thousand feet.”
Chairman Moyer – “Anything else? Bill move on”
Attorney William Alexander – “Sir Valley Hill
Fire Department runs three shifts of four persons twenty four hours a day is
that correct?”
Tim Garren – “Yes”
Attorney William Alexander – “You keep two at
station number one, one at…one person at number two, and one person at station number
three?”
Tim Garren – “That’s correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “so there’d be one
person twenty four hours a day at the site that’s only two miles from this
site, is that correct?”
Tim Garren – “That’s a half a mile…a half a mile
from the site.”
Attorney William Alexander – “I’m sorry. Um do all paid staff on duty respond to a
confirmed structure fire?”
Tim Garren – “All paid staff on duty respond to
any structural alarm until the officer in charge gets on the scene and confirms
if it’s a fire or false alarm.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And off duty staff
can respond if they hear the call?”
Tim Garren – “At Valley Hill our policy is off
duty personnel, as well as, the volunteers will also be responding.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Sir does Valley
Hill Fire Department have five engines, five tankers, one ladder truck and one
heavy rescue truck?”
Tim Garren – “That’s correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And the capacity
of your tankers total nine thousand two hundred gallons of water?”
Tim Garren – “That’s correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “Sir isn’t it true
that they establish fire ratings for different fire districts and that affects
homeowners insurance among other things?”
Tim Garren – “The Department of Insurance.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And Valley Hill
has a pretty high rating doesn’t it?”
Tim Garren – “It’s…we just received last year a
class four rating for our entire district.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And that class
four is that the highest one or…”
Tim Garren – “No class one is the best you can
be but that’s in the cities that have a hydrant every block.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Okay”
Tim Garren – “So…an also a class one through a
six carries the same for residential home owners.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Given the type of
this construction of this building to your knowledge in doing the fire rating
for your district, by the Insurance Commission, is this type of building even
taking into account?”
Tim Garren – “No sir this building, if the
inspectors were to come back in and start inspecting us again and looking at
our buildings and putting together the fire flow for our district this building
would not even come into consideration because it’s a sprinkler building so
they don’t look at them.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Would it summarize
your testimony sir that that as Battalion Chief of Valley Hill Fire Department
that you just don’t have any substantial concerns about the ability of your
department to serve this facility?”
Tim Garren – “That’s correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And Mr. Garren if
in fact, this depends on what the Commissioners approve on the fire tax I guess
but, if in fact this project added sufficient funds to the tax base to generate
say a hundred thousand dollars a year and fire tax revenues in the Valley Hill
district would that be a benefit to your department?”
Tim Garren – “It would allow us to keep growing
with the community.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Do you believe
such a contribution would exceed the drain of services if any upon your
department from this facility?”
Tim Garren – “This facility itself is not going
to drain us because we already have a station, equipment and personnel
there. What we have to watch is the
continual growth of the Crab Creek area because we have several other
developments going in and we try and grow with the community and stay ahead of
it.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Garren thank
you for your comments, any other questions from the Board?”
Attorney Boyd Massgee – “Bill relative to the
city situation with the water line, has the City Board of Commissioners
approved this expansion?”
William Lapsley – “Not to my knowledge”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Has the City Board of
Commission approved dollars for it?”
William Lapsley – “To the best of my knowledge
Mr. Smith, the director, has not presented this project to the City Council.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Haven’t even got to
them, and uh I assume those dollars are not even in the budget?”
William Lapsley – “Mr. Smith indicated to us
that he had sufficient funds to undertake the additional costs to enlarge the
system.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Just out of his
regular…he has that much extras in his tax dollars?”
William Lapsley – “From…I don’t know that there
tax dollars, there water revenues but he indicated to us that he had the funds
available to upsize.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “If the city approves
it?”
William Lapsley – “If the City Council and the
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “and the
Juanita James – “Good”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Do I understand you
that this…these daily tests would be made either by someone retained for that
purpose or they’d be someone who was…is a uh certified employee for the
company?”
Juanita James – “Yes sir that would be
true. It would either be a contract
operations firm like myself.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Right”
Juanita James – “Or it would be someone hired by
the company but they would be required to maintain the license required for the
facility and this case I would assume it would be a grade two waste water
operator.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Have you contracted
with any of the Grant Companies for any of their projects now?
Juanita James – “No sir we were only hired to do
the fecal color forms then the strain at this point.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “I see, Now then
normally these projects would have a person certified as such…it was just be an
additional duty for them rather than their sole duty being to inspect…inspect
this system, would that not be correct?”
Juanita James – “If they were hired by that
company yes sir that would be true.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “One are their other
duties?”
Juanita James – “One of their other duties.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “And the problems
arrive when they don’t get inspected and when they…they’re sick, they’re on
vacation, they’re not there or they forget?”
Juanita James – “The state requires them to have
a back up operator that if they are sick or on vacation they are required to
notify and that back up operator is required to make that visit during that
day.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “And this frequent does
not get done from time to time does it ma’am…that’s why we have failures?”
Juanita James – “In our company it does
sir.
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “But I’m not talking
about you, I’m talking about on…you know all the various uh…uh complaints that
the governmental agencies have when non…for not making these inspections do you
not?”
Juanita James – “But the state is very, very
quick to take care of those problems and their very quick to make sure that the
laws are being followed adequately.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Alright are you
telling me that these, these failures do not occur?”
Juanita James – “I’m not saying they never occur
but I can tell you they are certainly taken care of when they do.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “And uh how does the
state know whether or not…have not occurred or not?”
Juanita James – “The state comes out and does
periodic checks at the waste water treatment facilities. Um, they do spot and check inspections when
we’re not there. They are allowed to
have legal access no matter what time of day it is or weekends whenever they so
choose to come. Um, also they do
regulated inspections where they call us and say we want to see all your books,
all your records and we have to present everything to them. Um, also they get monthly reports that we are
required to submit to them requiring all of the data that the permit asked for;
flow, temperature, PH, etc. etc., and so they monitor those and its goes into
something called a Sims System, I believe it’s a Sims System, which tells them
whether or not there’s a frequency that’s been violated. Whether it be uh time on site was left off or
a day was missed or a foreign residual was left out. It tells them and it flags them and you get a
letter of…notifying you that you had a violation.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Can the forms be
filled in just later on and, and not be determined by the inspectors as to when
it was filled out?”
Juanita James – “Not by an honest operator sir”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Are you implying that
one who is not honest operator would, could do that?”
Juanita James – “I would hope not sir.”
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Massagee, let’s move on.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “That’s all. Uh, Mr. Westall, Mr. Westall these systems do
fail, do they not sir?”
Forrest Westall – “At times yes”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “And…and you have seen uh
systems that you were involved with originally that weren’t cared for properly
that subsequently failed have you not?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “And would that not be
the case for most every...every engineer who’s had your experience?”
Forrest Westall – “Are you talking about from a
regulatory standpoint?”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Yes sir”
Forrest Westall – “Yes, probably so”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “That’s all thank
you. Mr. Wible if I may please. Mr. Wible good evening sir, you’re talking
about as I understand you a storm water management plans?”
Dan Wible – “Yes”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Are, are the plans
that you’re talking about novel ones that’s not been in existence uh for some
period of time? Are they…are they those
plans been available for some time?”
Dan Wible – “No the plans have yet to be
developed.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Oh they haven’t been
developed?”
Dan Wible – “Correct”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “But I thought you said
they were plans available that could be developed that would be uh not fool
safe but close to fool safe?”
Dan Wible – “I believe, based on my preliminary
assessment of the site and soils and having visited the site personally, I
believe that the suite of BMP’s, Best Management Practices, that I mentioned
earlier would be feasible and that the specific goals for storm water
management would be feasible at this site but there has yet to be developed for
this project a storm water management plan.”
Attorney Boyd Massaagee – “Alright, uh the
individual involved who is the…the applicant involved is going to be one who’s
going to be determined as to whether or not such a plan and whether
governmental regulations are carried out properly are they…are they not?”
Dan Wible – “Yes”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Have you done work
before with the Grant companies on any of their projects?”
Dan Wible – “With the Grant Companies, no I
haven’t.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Uh, would you be aware
of by any chance of the um Brevard project that the Grant’s have done?”
Dan Wible – “No I can’t say I am.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “
Dan Wible – “No”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Were you aware that
the County of Buncombe has sited them uh for a project, as far as water erosion
control being improper, to the extent of a hundred and sixty seven times on one
project and fined them some twenty plus thousand dollars for defects in…in…in
their operation of that plan?”
Dan Wible – “No I wasn’t aware of that.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Alright sir,
if...if…if uh that kind of behavior occurs with this project we will have a lot
of water coming down the creek in the road will we not sir?”
Dan Wible – “You will, yes”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Thank you”
Chairman Moyer – “One question from me before
you leave. You explained these various
gullies and…and really small places to retain water that voids having a…a major
collection point?”
Dan Wible – “Yes”
Chairman Moyer – “How in the world does a dry
hydrant system work if you don’t have a major pond to draw water from?”
Dan Wible – “Uh, yes maybe I should clarify
that. I believe the pond is still a
future that will uh exist on the site.
I’m not…we’re not proposing to eliminate the retention pond that’s going
to be there. We approach storm water
management, I say we, Kay Hill Associates, we approach storm water management
with the idea again of promoting infiltration, ground water recharge, improved
water quality, and again we do that through a distributed system of
infiltration best management practices.
So we always start off with the assumption or the hope that we will be
able to eliminate large detention basins; detention meaning hold and release
over a period of time. That’s our goal
whenever we start a project. Um, now it
doesn’t always turn into reality, we sometimes need a small detention basin
depending on lots of factors but that’s our goal.”
Chairman Moyer – “To the extent that you’re
successful there’s no water for a dry hydrant to draw from.”
Dan Wible – “No that’s not true. No the retention basin will exist um regardless
of anything that we come up with uh for storm water management, is my
understanding at least.”
Chairman Moyer – “Any other questions? Mr. Massagee?”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “I have no questions of
him sir.”
Chairman Moyer – “Of anybody else, I mean other
witnesses.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “I have no questions of
the other witnesses.”
Chairman Moyer – “Alright, Mr. Cherry do you
have any questions?”
John Cherry – “Yes I do.”
Chairman Moyer – “Alright, you can just go down
the same order any one’s you want.”
John Cherry – “Okay uh, the first meeting we had
I asked uh is this to do with traffic but uh it really wasn’t that satisfied
with my answer. I asked about the
traffic that was out there and someone from the Glen stated that traffic would
be no problem, and keep in mined they were supposed to be under oath. Traffic be no problem because all their
employees would be on a twenty four hour shift.
Uh, I’m wondering if that’s so and if it is I’d hate…I’d hate to be
there in the nursing home when the nurse on a twenty four hour shift. So I think that was a little misleading on
their part.”
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Cherry you’ll have an
opportunity in just a short bit to make your closing statements and say what
you want.”
John Cherry – “Okay”
Chairman Moyer – “Right now you can only ask
questions of the witnesses that were put on.”
John Cherry – “Right, okay, Mrs. James, or
the…the lady that spoke on the…”
Chairman Moyer – “She’s coming down right behind
you.”
John Cherry – “Uh, what is the discharge rate
for the Blue Star Camp, in other words how much water – sewer water are they
putting in Mud Creek?”
Juanita James – “I don’t know, I am not the
operator of Camp Blue Star and so I have not seen their permit.”
John Cherry – “Would you think that you…you said
that you went out and checked and the water level was fine but would
theirs…should be a lot less…be a lot less than what the Glen’s going to put in
there, would that not be correct?”
Juanita James – “No sir, no that’s not true, as
long as their facility is operating properly you could literally have a
non-detect, no colonies per hundred mills leaving your waste water treatment
facilities.”
John Cherry – “I’m not talking about that, I’m
talking about the volume, they would put less water into Mud Creek than the
Glen is. I mean there can’t be that many
people using the bathroom and whatever there in comparison to the Glen which is
going to be like a small hospital.”
Juanita James – “I truly have not seen either
one of the permits. I cannot attest to
that.”
John Cherry – “Okay”
Juanita James – “I’m sorry”
John Cherry – “Uh, you stated that…are you
telling me that you, if this is approved, that your company would be out there
everyday checking the water at the Glen, you’re going to go out there everyday
and take a water sample?”
Juanita James – “If they hire us as their
contract operations firm then yes sir I will have an operator on that site,
that is at least a grade two operator, every day doing testing Monday through
Friday and if there is problems we always go out on the weekends and recheck
but definitely on Monday through Friday.”
John Cherry – “Do…do most failures in these
systems do they happen during the weekend or on…during the week?”
Juanita James – “Well if they’re going to have
one it usually happens at four o’clock on a Friday afternoon when you’re making
your last stop and you’re wishing to go home.
That’s when your belts are broke, but typically…but when you come in on
Monday morning, it’s just as pretty as it was when you left on Friday
afternoon. Very seldom do you have
breakdowns.”
John Cherry – “Uh, sludge removal…”
Juanita James – “yes sir”
John Cherry – “Do you all monitor that and who
will take this sludge out of there and where will it be disposed at?”
Juanita James – “If they hire us as their
contract operations we are contracted with Mike’s Septic Tank Service out of
Leicester, North Carolina and what they do they have permitted both in
Hendersonville and in Brevard and at MSD, I’m sorry not at Hendersonville,
they’re not excepting right now. But at
Brevard and MSD to be able to do a sludge haul to their…they are permitted to dump
at those two sites and sludge is only removed on a necessary basis. I anticipate that this facility will have a
digester; again I don’t know I’ve not seen the permit. But what that does is it allows you to
accommodate many, many solids over a large period of time to where it settles
out so you have less impact, um it literally eats itself if you will so that
it’s not pumped as often.”
John Cherry – “Would it be removed on a smell
basis or just as a getting to full?”
Juanita James – “As Mr. Westall had pointed out,
as long as the facility is operating properly, which you aerate, those
digesters aught zone. You settle them
out, you waste, and then you aerate and as long as you’re aerating that
facility then the opportunity to have an odor is nil to none. As Mr. Westall mentioned when you have a
problem, yes you do have a small odor.
It’s regains very, very quickly.
Those facilities are designed to be able to recover at a rapid pace.”
John Cherry – “Yes well at the present out there
we have no odors at all.”
Juanita James – “That’s exactly right and that’s
because Camp Blue Star’s doing a fantastic job operating their…operating their
plant and that would be the same accommodation at any other waste water
facility whether it be the Glens or anyone else for that matter as long as
their operating properly and the operators attentive then very little problem
should every occur.”
John Cherry – “Okay thank you”
Juanita James – “Thank you”
John Cherry – “Uh, Mr. Wible, I might have said
your name wrong. Could you…could you
possibly, I’m just kind of a country boy, but could you tell me exactly you
spoke of berms just how big a berm would have to be to retain water on a slope
of say 25 to 45% slope? How tall would
that berm be to keep that water from coming over it and sending it to where you
want it to go?
Dan Wible – “That’s a good question. Um, we would never rely on a single berm on
such a slope to retain uh a large quantity of storm water to be
infiltrated. Um, I mentioned uh we’re
talking really about many, many, many small measures, not, not big measures so
uh when we would design a berm it would be we would try to make it very suttle
we would try to sneak it through the trees we don’t want to disturb any trees
as much as we can. Um, maybe twelve
inches tall maybe less.”
John Cherry – “So a person’s yard out there is
going to be one rolling hill after the other to keep the water from coming
down?”
Dan Wible – “No, no, no not necessarily, um what
we’ve done uh on other such projects we’ve looked into um creating or
implementing subsurface infiltration trenches or beds usually filled with stone
uh on the property itself within the lot and within the limit of
disturbance. What we’re talking about
here is within the woods itself so downhill of any homes of any sites again
very suttle short berms twelve inches probably less.”
John Cherry – “You…you stated earlier or at the
close of your thing that you believed that your system would work. Do you believe that it will work or do you
know that it will work in this…in this particular site where you’ve got the
steep slopes and uh you know you’re going to have a lot of…you’re going to have
a lot of water coming off that hill?
When it rains it…it comes down hard.
We haven’t…haven’t had any really, I think the last time we had any bad
rain was the hurricane up there at
Dan Wible – “No, I believe it will work. My initial assessment tells me that such a
tragedy is feasible at this site. Uh,
all the engineering has to be done, all the calculations, all the homework but um
I believe if you looked up my company, Kay Hill Associates, you’ll find that we
have an excellent reputation uh in storm water management throughout the nation
and we would not be involved in this project if we didn’t think we could make
it work.”
John Cherry – “Okay thank you, uh Mr. Grant.”
Jerry Grant – “Yes sir”
John Cherry – “Uh, you stated uh I guess your
going to have elevators in the building and you got stairwells and uh this if
for uh I guess assisted living although uh some assisted living people are in
wheelchairs. Uh, in case of a fire your
people you stated would be carried or moved…moved from that building uh by
ele…uh by a stairwell, are your - uh stairwells wheelchair accessible?”
Jerry Grant – “Yes they are wide enough for a
person to be carried downstairs per building code.”
John Cherry – “And in the event of a fire I
guess you’re going to have uh enough people up there probably to carry all
these people down the building?”
Jerry Grant – “If they were in a wheelchair
they’d have to be carried down.”
John Cherry – “Okay, that was my question. Mr. Garren are…the Glen is proposing to build
a five story building, are there any other in the Valley Hill fire district are
there any other five story buildings that you all…you all give protection for,
five story buildings in the county not the city?”
Tim Garren – “I don’t know right off hand if we
have any five story we have several four story buildings.”
John Cherry – “Okay, uh the ladder truck,
have…have…I can’t…I don’t imagine…I don’t see a big five story building out
there you know out
Tim Garren – “Yes we have”
John Cherry – “You have”
Tim Garren – “several times because we’ve
responded mutual aid when
John Cherry – “Okay, and is uh…do you have the
Glens uh…uh stuff that, that the roads going into the Glen, I know some of
these…some of the…when they build these developments the roads are kind of big
going in there and one’s get small, are the roads going to be adequate where
that you will be able to get…get this truck up there if…if come need uh I
brought up at the last meeting or you know said fire uh a lot of these people
in assisted living are or nursing homes or whatever are on oxygen and normally
you won’t have a big fire but if oxygen gets…gets loose and somebody’s smoking
then you could have a big flash fire so uh are the roads going to be adequate,
I guess you’re going to make them…make them be adequate.”
Tim Garren – “They’ve showed us the roads and we
discussed a few changes and they’ve said that you know if the project goes
through that those changes can be made to accommodate our vehicles.”
John Cherry – “Okay thank you”
Chairman Moyer – “Thank you Mr. Cherry. Mr. Knowlton do you have any questions?”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes sir”
Chairman Moyer – “Okay”
Bill Knowlton – “ Uh Mr. Lapsley please.”
William Lapsley – “Yes sir”
Bill Knowlton – “Alright I know that you talked
about moving the ten inch pipe and if the city would - could do it in
conjunction they would use a thirty inch pipe.”
William Lapsley – “No the city indicated to us
their master plan for that area called for a twelve inch.”
Bill Knowlton – “called…I’m sorry a twelve
inch.”
William Lapsley – “line and the size to serve
this project alone was a ten inch pipe.”
Bill Knowlton – “Okay, now with all these monies
that have been uh talked about, does that also include buying rights over
different land to move that…the uh – the uh water lines?”
William Lapsley – “To uh…you’re talking about rights
of way along the road?”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes”
William Lapsley – “There is a contingency amount
in…in that budget for requiring any rights of ways along
Bill Knowlton – “For pump stations and…and the
like”
William Lapsley – “Well the design presumes, in
my opinion, that a pumping station would be built near the intersection of
Little River Road and Crab Creek Road where…at the point of connection and that
uh that then there would be a pipe line from that location along the shoulder
of the road to the Glens through the Glens project to a storage tank on the
Glens property. It assumes that the…the
Glens would provide the land for the water storage tank, which they have indicated
they will do, and there are sufficient funds, I believe, in that budget to
acquire a pumping station site, yes.”
Bill Knowlton – “As well as…as you mentioned uh
the right of ways that they would have to purchase uh for…”
William Lapsley – “Well I’m not sure they’d have
to purchase any but there is…there is an amount in the budget to do that if
it’s necessary.”
Bill Knowlton – “Oh, alright thank you. Um, Ms. James please, I’m not quite sure if
you would answer the question or Mr. Westall or between the two of you
we’d…you’d address this. But what
uh…what are the corrective action that’s taken if indeed you detect a failure?”
Juanita James – “Okay, there’s multiple things
that can occur. If you walk on site and
you’ve got belts broken um we always have a backup belt either on site or in
the service truck that can go right on to the motor blower combination. If it happens to one that we’ve just used at
another site off the service truck we have accounts with like BMW Auto Parts
that they stock all of the belts that we need.
So if it’s something simple like that it’s a quick fix, we can run and
get the part we need and put it back on.
If it’s something along the lines that a motor has burn up let’s say,
then you are required to have dual motors and blowers so that particular one
would go out of service, the other one would come online, it would run the
treatment plant while you have one either overnighted or wait where it’s
usually a two day delivery time. If it’s
um a pump that goes out then there’s um…where you have contract with HD
Waterworks; one in Charlotte, one in Asheville, depends on the size of the pump
that you need that you go and you get it and it goes in usually again on the
same day. But again it’s a dual train
system so if you have two pumps in the equalization basin for example that
sends the water to the rest of the facility then if one is out the other can
carry the load until which time the second one can be installed so it depends
on what you run in to um if it’s floats that…um that levels out the water in
the equalization basin we always have extra floats in our…in our arsenal of
goods, if you will, that we can get it replaced that same day. Um same with electrical, if we have an
electrician’s problem if it’s something minor we take care of it ourselves, if
not we are contracted with an electrician who comes in that same…you know
basically eight hour period when we call.
He might come at six o’clock that evening but he’s still there that
day.”
Bill Knowlton – “Well uh one uh, have you
engaged in any failures?”
Juanita James – “Oh yes you will always have
mechanical problems.”
Bill Knowlton – “Okay…Alright”
Juanita James – “Over time”
Bill Knowlton – “Now when that mechanical
failure occurs what happens to the source…to the uh…uh…stream that…that…that
the waste is being inputted?”
Juanita James – “Really very little impact
because we do have the backup system.
If…if it were only one motor and blower sitting there then yes it would
be down for the time that you’re waiting.
But since we do have the dual, and on everything, dual pumps, dual
motors and blowers, dual –um if it’s a EQ it has a cross through if the level
gets to high, if the pump goes out. You
know any number of things there’s always a backup system so really very, very
little impact would occur because you always have a backup plan.”
Bill Knowlton – “So even if you did…if you did a
test after a failure that there would be very little impact in the stream?”
Juanita James – “Very little”
Bill Knowlton – “Alright”
Juanita James – “If…if you’re typically running
at let’s say three parts BOD then after a failure you might be at ten but your
limit would be thirty so again that’s very, very little impact it would not be
a compliance issue most of the time.”
Bill Knowlton – “Okay”
Juanita James – “Most all of the time”
Bill Knowlton – “Thank you”
Juanita James – “Thank you”
Bill Knowlton – “Mr. Westall, I believe that
Mrs. James answered one of my questions which was on the effect on any type of
crops that was using that stream for irrigation that there would be no affect
on that as far as uh fecal color form or any other type of uh infestation
that…that could be transmitted into the stream.”
Forrest Westall – “Associated with a failure?”
Bill Knowlton – “With a failure”
Forrest Westall – “There shouldn’t be any impact
on the uses of the water as an irrigation source.”
Bill Knowlton – “Okay, you mentioned that in
the…in the case of a flood that the structure had to be built such that the
flood would not affect it?”
Forrest Westall – “That’s correct”
Bill Knowlton – “Okay, what do you do in the
case of a flood and you have to pump water out into the area, do you continue
to pump and increase the…the flood capacity or do you hold the…the uh…can you
hold the tank and stop your flooding…your uh pumping…uh procedure?”
Forrest Westall – “You’re talking about the
discharge?”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes”
Forrest Westall – “There would be a provision in
there to be able to discharge during the hundred year storm level. It would be the plant itself would be protected
from the hundred year flood level and they’d be able to discharge their waste
water. In addition all the collection
system, the lines that serve the plant and the pump stations, they have to be
protected from the hundred year flood level as well.”
Bill Knowlton – “Alright, well…uh…along with
this plan and…and the projection that you talk about you also talked about
noise abatement and…and uh the different techniques that could be used. My question is…is I mean right now is that
conjecture or is this actually planned in this uh…this uh…uh…sewerage treatment
center…uh already, I mean are they lowering it are they…what are they going to
with it?”
Forrest Westall – “Well at this point the…the
design of the waste water…the detailed design has not been done.”
Bill Knowlton – “Alright”
Forrest Westall – “and…and that would be
something that would be incorporated. I
think because of the issues that are raised by the public that that would
certainly have to be a very important provision of the design that you would
include very substantial noise suppression in the design of the treatment
plant.”
Bill Knowlton – “Well I…yes sir we live across
from Blue Star and they have tried their best to be good neighbors and they’ve
done their best to try to abate the noise however, it is really a pain and you
thank God when the camp closes for it to continue on. Now that would be a main concern for us not
only that…that in it’s hypothetical that this can be done but indeed that this
be part of the…the uh whole procedure in developing it.”
Forrest Westall – “Well and…and when you say
hypothetical, I’ve seen many plants built and approved many plants that did
have noise suppression designed into it at a very high level and it really
depends on the design component once the plan is put together and that would
take into consideration the concerns of nearby neighbors.”
Bill Knowtlon – “Okay, I that…just one more
question for you. You talked about
various violations and said yes there are multiple violations those most of
them were minor in nature or technical in nature. Has there been a major violation in which uh
the…the point of discharge was adversely affected?”
Forrest Westall – “In, in what…any…any
facility?”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes”
Forrest Westall – “Obviously there have been
yes.”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes”
Forrest Westall – “But when you consider a major
violation again it depends uh…you know…I would consider a major violation a
complete failure with raw waste water going down…most of…most of the…most of
the failures that we’ve seen, in fact ninety five percent of them, even when
it’s a limit violation it’s only a small deviation from the number they are
required to do. They can be assessed a
penalty for that but, as far as, failures – complete failures, we see more of
those in collections systems not in waste water plants where the pump station
goes down and raw waste water goes into a stream.”
Bill Knowlton – “Alright so…but the water
sewerage treatment right now you say is pointed more in the right direction, as
far as, preventative?”
Forrest Westall – “Yes”
Bill Knowlton – “Thank you sir”
Forrest Westall – “Thank you”
Bill Knowlton – “Mr. Wibel, sir I believe you’ve
already answered part of these, but I’d like to just reiterate a bit if I may.”
Dan Wible – “Certainly”
Bill Knowlton – “Um, right now you have not been
engaged…you were talking hypothetical of berms and the like you have not been
engaged to develop this?”
Dan Wible – “We have only been engaged uh thus
far to preliminarily access the feasibility of such a tragedy.”
Bill Knowlton – “Okay, and uh how costly is
this?”
Dan Wible – “It’s a good question, um we’ve seen
uh…well let me back up a little bit…uh I talked I think at great length about
the type of approach that we would espouse.
Um, we typically don’t do a traditional design, traditional detention,
because we think it doesn’t work. We
think it’s a failed system. Um, what
we’ve seen from our studies comparing uh traditional approach to a…what’s
called a sustainable approach um we believe that the cost are comparable.”
Bill Knowlton – “You…you…there’s no way of
coming up with a figure until you actually work on the actual project?”
Dan Wible – “Well it involve you doing
essentially two different designs; traditional and a sustainable approach and
then coming up with detailed costs.”
Bill Knowlton – “Who monitors the project?”
Dan Wible – “During construction, post
construction…would…both?”
Bill Knowton – “Yes”
Dan Wible – “Uh, well that’s a good question, I
think um during construction uh I believe uh the local regulatory agency
would...would be out here um I not sure what the local uh requirements are for
that but um, as far as, long term monitoring um to be honest typically there’s
not a long term monitoring for these projects.
Once it’s approved uh once the design is approved and it’s been
implemented correctly um it’s considered good for life as long as it’s
maintained.”
Bill Knowlton -“It’s maintained and of course
it’ll…when it’s finished you’re the one that says it’s finished.”
Dan Wible – “Yes and…and I should say that Kay
Hill Associates takes a very…hands on approach uh to our projects. We like to be out there at several key phases
during the installation to make sure that their building it to our
specifications.”
Bill Knowlton – “Um, well you talked about
returning water to the aquifer.”
Dan Wible – “Yes”
Bill Knowlton – “Which we do not know what the
layer is on it or what the size of it is or anything else. How long is it going to take you to return
that water to the aquifer?”
Dan Wible – “I…I can’t answer that question.”
Bill Knowlton – “Conceivably it could be thirty
days, it could be three months, it could be three years?”
Dan Wible – “Uh, conceivably it could be some
length of time that I can’t tell you right now that is but…”
Bill Knowlton – “Until you know the size of the
aquifer…”
Dan Wible – “It won’t be any different from the
pre-development conditions is what our goal would be.”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes but I mean until you know
the size of the aquifer, the depth of it and…and the like…and how far you have
to go to reach it.”
Dan Wible – “Uh, that’s not exactly what our
analysis will entail. We would look at
how much runoff is coming off the site under existing conditions, what doesn’t
runoff is being recharged or at least is being infiltrated. Some of what is infiltrated is sent back into
the atmosphere be all the veggies that we have all the trees which are great
water pumps. Uh, and what doesn’t get
evaporate transpired back into the atmosphere gets recharged in the aquifer.”
Bill Knowlton – “Over a period of time”
Dan Wible – “so we can calculate what that
volume is and we can design our system to mimic that volume”
Bill Knowlton – “Well the question I ask you
here then, you know, I know the aquifer is a problem but you also have all
these roadways, you also have all these driveways, uh what-cha-ma-call-it, you
know, picnic sites or whatever, you have the uh the parking areas, you’ve got
thirty acres of a town center which is all concrete. Uh, how do you return the water from that to
the aquifer?”
Dan Wible – “Well um, if you have uh areas such
as the parking lot and the courtyard area um you can grate that out of
permeable materials. You can design
infiltration systems to go below those areas.
Uh, so any water that is going to fall directly on those hard surfaces
can be directly infiltrated at the source.”
Bill Knowlton – “But once again this is
theoretical and this is what could be done, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s
going to be done.”
Dan Wible – “It’s uh…I think it’s feasible for
the site.”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes alright, uh I believe
that’s all the questions I have for you sir.
Thank you. Um, Mr. Grant, I know
that you talked about the buildings and the fire uh control uh and the like and
of course it has been mentioned earlier about uh oxygen and other highly
explosive type materials uh that are there.
I know that you want…right now they’ve talked not from apartment
buildings they’ve talked about this being assisted living buildings so therefore
if you go into that category we’re not talking about people that…that are
viable that can walk and…on their own because if they are on their own and they
can walk and the like then they’re really not assisted living their in an
apartment building. But rather if they
are assisted living and the like, how do you go about moving a hundred…I
believe it was a hundred and sixty people in the apartments or assisted living
items plus eighty personnel in the nursing center in the case of a fire how do
you evacuate all these and about how much time do you think it would take?”
Jerry Grant – “I’ve…I have no idea. It wouldn’t be any different than a
hospital. Uh, these…all the walls inside
this facility if a fire starts it would be contained within a one hour rated
structure so you’ve got at least an hour, plus you’ve got a automatic sprinkler
system that’s going to be putting the fire out in that period of time, plus you
don’t have anything combustible other than the persons furniture or bed or sofa
or that kind of materials. That’s why
it’s built out of non-combustible materials.”
Bill Knowlton – “Well I…I realize that I’m just
looking at the…the actual fact of trying to evacuate a hundred and sixty people
plus another eighty, that’s two hundred and forty people and even though you
may have an hour to do it in, it’s not necessarily an easy project.”
Jerry Grant – “No it wouldn’t be easy but what
we’re doing is following the North Carolina building code which has been
developed over many, many years and it’s actually the southern building code
that North Carolina adapted. So this
isn’t the first multi-story building with assisted living people in it. There are fifty-five CCRC’s in the State of
Bill Knowlton – “Well my question was have you
resolved the issues?”
Jerry Grant – “No sir”
Bill Knowlton – “Okay”
Jerry Grant – “We would have a procedure to get
people out of the building but at this point and this preliminary design we
have not gotten into that level of details.”
Bill Knowlton – “Okay, thank you sir, and one
more Mr. Garren. Uh, I’ve looked at your
response times and…and…and the like and we could…we could cribble, but I’ve
driven Crab Creek Road and it’s a hum-dinger and my questions is, where do you
go when you’re driving down Crab Creek Road and there’s a fire engine behind
you, because you can’t pull off on the right or on the left because you not
only have some pretty steep ditches which turns your vehicle over so
it…it…it…it…it…it is indeed a hazard for you moving at that high speed to get
around those vehicles, would you not say that?”
Tim Garren – “Anytime we go out anywhere we go
running in merging traffic is a hazard to us, that’s why we train our people
and they train constantly to deal with it.”
Bill Knowlton – “Alright in this particular case
we’re looking at two multi-story buildings of five stories; one of four story,
you have one ladder, do you need additional equipment?”
Tim Garren – “It’s…it…do I need additional
equipment for what? It just depends on
what I’m doing?”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes for handling a fire in two
buildings, three buildings, four story, two five story”
Tim Garren – “Are you talking about if all three
buildings are on fire at one time?”
Bill Knowlton – “If they’re on fire or
evacuation?”
Tim Garren – “I’d be calling for the Mutual Aid
Departments. I’ve got eleven other departments in
Bill Knowlton – “Alright and they all…each one
have has a hook and ladder?”
Tim Garren – “No, the City of
Bill Knowlton – “Okay”
Tim Garren – “The Fletcher Fire Department has a
hundred foot platform I could call.
Mountain Home has a ladder truck I could call for.”
Bill Knowlton – “and…and…How long could you get
it…how quickly could they get into it?”
Tim Garren – “That’s…I can’t answer that
question…I mean”
Bill Knowlton – “Well I mean this is just a
consideration. I also noticed that you
have the streets…not the streets but the roadways going in…into the um uh
facilities, they all merge into one main lane.
Alright uh if you’re coming in you hope no ones coming out because you
can’t get passed them.”
Tim Garren – “Before the road…before anything’s
approved and building wise I normally get draft copies from the Planning Board,
that shows us roads and the width and stuff like that and the Henderson County
Fire Marshal’s office also gets them and they make sure our road widths…you
know that’s one thing we check as to make sure we can get our trucks in and
out.”
Bill Knowlton – “No, I’m really…I’m just
concerned about that. That was. The uh, you say you have a safety net a half
mile away and that they could respond within uh two minutes or less?”
Tim Garren – “Station two.”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes, I’ve been there. They have two uh...uh pumpers, two tankers
right?”
Tim Garren – “No there’s a pumper there, there’s
a tank…there’s a engine, and two tankers and a medical truck.”
Bill Knowlton – “Alright, with…the engine can
actually it attaches to a pumper and it can then be used against fire?”
Tim Garren – “The pumper would be your attack
pumper.”
Bill Knowlton – “Okay”
Tim Garren – “The other two trucks, the tankers,
all they…they bring water to you. Okay,
then I have three other tankers at the headquarters station.”
Bill Knowlton – “So basically with one man at
that location which vehicle does he drive to get there within two minutes and
what does he do? If he gets there
without a tanker he can’t…he can’t uh…”
Tim Garren – “If one mans at the station he - he
drives, depending on what the call is…”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes”
Tim Garren – “We respond to what the call is.”
Bill Knowlton – “Well fire”
Tim Garren – “If it’s a medical call we take the
small truck. If it’s a fire call he
takes the engine. His first thing is
life safety. That’s our…our first obligation
is life safety.”
Bill Knowlton – “Okay”
Tim Garren – “He gives the size up to the
responding unit’s coming. The officer in
charge starts calling for additional help if needed. Every call is different.”
Bill Knowlton – “I understand sir and I’m not
trying to pin you down but what I’m saying, with one person there, even though
the response time…and you’re talking response time but what are you responding
with?”
Tim Garren – “An engine”
Bill Knowlton – “An engine, one person and that
one person once he drives in with the engine what does he do with it?”
Tim Garren – “He calls and gives a size up and
he starts life safety measures.”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes but, like I said, the
building’s burning so now he’s…he’s got to have some of the…in other words what
I’m saying is…”
Tim Garren – “Well, but you’re saying…you’re
thinking of just the career staff, you’re forgetting that we are a combination
department and we also have volunteers that are responding as well; which we
have a couple of volunteers out in the Crab Creek area.”
Bill Knowlton – “Great, how quick can a
volunteer on his job get to your location?”
Tim Garren – “It…it depends on the type of…the
time of day of the fire. They may be at
home and not be at their job.”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes, well once again what I’m
trying to…just for…”
Tim Garren – “No I’m giving you answers as
factual as I can.”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes but if, you know, it’s one
thing to say we’ve got a response time but the question is what do you have a
response time with, thats all? You know
uh…uh…uh you know the guy that shows up with the rifle but the ammunition is…is
being carried by five other guys…he can’t shoot the bear until they get there,
and so that’s what I’m looking at, as far as, the fire is concerned. The big thing that I was uh…really concerned
about was do you need the cost of now the density if this site goes in? The density of homes, the density of the
assisted living, uh all these items they now are a greater threat and therefore
would need, you know, a greater uh…uh be able to respond with a greater
resource to relocate some of your vehicles.
Do you leave the vehicles that you’ve got there and…and build an
addition on that station and put a ladder truck there for example; man it with
more than two or three people? What I’m
saying is due you need to increase your resources?”
Tim Garren – “We’re in the process now of
increasing our resources. We watch the
community and try and grow with it as growth happens. The growth has been happening in the Crab
Creek area because we have several developments going in at this time and our
current budget that we just got approved by the County Commissioners we just
budgeted in to hire three more people which we’re going to put another person
to each shift which we’re going to double up out at station two. In other words, there will be two men at
station two on duty, just like at headquarters.”
Bill Knowlton – “I guess what I’m looking at is,
from your standpoint, how much on uh, you know, degrade you what I’m really…you
do a great job, what I’m looking at is if this is going in do you need
additional resources, and if so, now is the time to say I need them and if this
goes in I need to have this, this or this at the station.”
Tim Garren – “If you’re asking if I need
additional resources for this project, the answer is no, not for this
project. Okay, as I’ve got the resources
for this project, but as the community of Crab Creek grows we will have to grow
with it. But for this one particular
project, no we do not need additional resources.”
Bill Knowlton – “Even with two five story
buildings and a four story building, that’s all I have sir.”
Chairman Moyer – “Alright thank you Mr.
Knowlton.”
Bill Knowlton – “Thank you”
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Erb I believe was not
here, Ms. McDowell do you have any questions?
She’s not here either. Um, Mr.
Alexander has your other witness arrived?”
Attorney William Alexander – “He has Mr. Moyer
um, I would frankly like to ask for about a ten minute recess before I start
him, he’s not going to be that long but we can right from him into closing.”
Chairman Moyer – “I’d rather get him done then have
a break and do the closing. Is he not
ready to go?”
Attorney William Alexander – “Yes sir he’s ready
to go, Mr. Hepler would you come up please?
Let me organize here just one minute.
We call Thomas R. Hepler uh, you are Mr. Hepler uh you are Mr. Hepler is
that correct? Mr. Hepler you were sworn
in at a previous proceeding weren’t you?”
Thomas Hepler – “That is correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And Mr. Hepler I
know you previously rendered testimony in this proceeding but the Board has
since received other testimony from people relative to the highway and highway
safety issues out there. The first thing
I would ask you sir is whether or not, in the scope and course of your study,
this project you have prepared; what has been delineated as an accident study
uh relative to this project uh and the road out there and dated June 25, 2007?”
Thomas Hepler – “That is correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright and I
believe those are being disseminated now and is this that same report?”
Thomas Hepler – “That is correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “And sir, are the
findings set forth in that report and the data attached to that report uh your
findings and data?”
Thomas Hepler – “That is…that is my findings and
my data.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright, we’ll
come back to how you did that in just a minute.
Sir did you also prepare a separate report entitled Traffic and Safety
Analysis uh dated May 18, 2007 revised July 19, 2007?”
Thomas Hepler – “That is correct”
Attorney William Alexander – “Sir at the time
you prepared that report and…and then later at the time you revised it on July
19, 2007 had you made…had made available to you the uh report of a Mr. Hummer
who testified in this proceeding as well as some raw data relative to his reports?”
Thomas Hepler – “Uh at the time of the revision
that…this had been made available to me”
Attorney William Alexander – “Okay, and I
believe that’s also being disseminated at this point and is the report that I’m
showing you is that one in the same?”
Thomas Hepler – “That is the correct report,
yes.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright, and sir
would you uh tell the Board first what your professional uh qualifications
are. What your educational background
history, area of employment, professional or state issued certification?”
Chairman Moyer – “We’ve covered this before when
he testified didn’t we?”
Attorney William Alexander – “Um, I’m not sure
sir that we, Mr. Moyer, that we uh established his credentials particularly in
the area of transportation engineering so if he could just briefly address that
for your own…”
Chairman Moyer – “Okay”
Thomas Hepler – “Just briefly uh my educational
background was from NC State University.
I’ve got a Master Degree in Transportation, uh…also a…uh…further study
with…toward a PHD in Transportation as well.
Um…I am a…um…licensed professional engineer, as well as, a licensed
professional uh surveyor. Uh, I have
been conducting traffic engineering studies for almost thirty years, uh…also
taught at the NC State University for approximately four years in the
transportation arena.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Now Mr. Hepler
would…would you agree that the base data that you used for your study was
essentially from the same base data source that uh Mr. Hummer used in his
consideration?”
Thomas Hepler – “The data that was…that I used
in my study is from the same source. The
data is for a different segment of roadways so the data’s going to be slightly
different um and my study also came up with a few different findings based upon
the ADT on the roadway out there. Uh, so
it…whenever you’re dealing with accident data, uh which we’re talking about
here, accident data and the statistics involved with that are heavily dependent
upon the average daily traffic that you have on the roadway. Basically the uh accident uh we measure
accident data uh on…we evaluate accident data based upon the number of
accidents per hundred million vehicle miles traveled. So it’s very dependant upon the average that
we traffic upon the roadway. That is
where our reports differ uh mainly is in…is in the ADT that was actually used
to determine that.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Would you tell the
Board what the difference was in the ADT?”
Thomas Hepler – “The difference in the ADT, the
ADT that uh Dr. Hummer used um was based upon a…a ADT that was taken in 2005
just south of the project. Uh, there’s
actually another ADT that was uh…that was available too from the DOT, from the
same source, north of the project which increased. That ADT that Dr. Hummer used was forty-three
hundred vehicles a day in 2005 and the ADT north of the project is sixty-four
hundred as you get closer back into town.
What I did, in my analysis, was take an average because the project
base…the project corridor that was analyzed by Dr. Hummer uh was between those
two points, so I took an average between those two. Furthermore we took…I took and projected that
traffic along the three year time span of which the um…of which the traffic
accident data was obtained. Now based
upon that I come up with an ADT…the actual ADT average was fifty-four hundred
and thirty-five vehicles over the time span of which the accidents
occurred. That was used in determining
the uh vehicles or the accidents per hundred million vehicles per uh hundred
million vehicle miles traveled. Now
applying this to the five mile section and the number of accidents that Dr.
Hummer used in his report, which was seventy-eight accidents I believe over
that period of time, you come up with an accident rate of uh two hundred and
fifty eight accidents per million miles…million vehicle miles of travel or with
that three year time span. The statewide
average as obtained from the NCDOT that was provided to me in this same report
or in the same um data that they gave me…the statewide average is three hundred
and seventy vehicles…three hundred and seventy accidents per million vehicle
miles traveled. Bottom line is the
accident rate on that roadway, on
Chairman Moyer – “Bill you have anything else?”
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Hepler is it
true in Mr. Hummer’s report he assumed that all traffic coming out of this
project onto
Thomas Hepler – “Um, that is correct, I think
I’ll reiterate what I spoke…mentioned earlier.
Um, in reality, as much as, thirty maybe even forty percent maybe be
going back toward the uh opposite direction and not back toward
Attorney William Alexander – “And in doing your
study did you in fact include the segment of road that continued into
Hendersonville and ended at State Street in Hendersonville as opposed to Price
Road where Mr. Hummer stopped?”
Thomas Hepler – “Uh that is correct, the study
that you have before you actually extended on into the downtown area. Uh it did not go to the actual intersection
but uh it did extend at least one mile further than the uh the study that uh…uh
that Dr. Hummer prepared.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And it’s your
testimony that one death event in three years on a road with this ADT is
insufficient statistically to be reliable on a seventeen year projection?”
Thomas Hepler – “It is insufficient data to
project with just one data point and you envision how you project a line, you
have to have at least two data points to project a line so one…one point of
data is insufficient to do any projection with.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Isn’t it true sir
that those same things, whether or not a death occurred unfortunately, or an
accident occurred unfortunately, is it affected by a multitude of issues such
as weather, road conditions, you know, speed limits, changes, you know, hazards
in the road that can’t be adequately incorporated into a modeling program?”
Thomas Helper – “Um that is correct. Um the…you have a multitude of modeling
programs out there uh with different variables you can incorporate into
those. The best model that you can…the
best way in which in order for it to predict what kind of accident you’re going
to have is too look at the historical trend on the existing…on the roadway,
which takes into affect all those variables and all those perimeters. Uh, so that’s essentially what I did on my
projection. My projection, when I did
that, matched up almost identical to Dr. Hummer’s using his data. Now when I incorporated the different data
with the ADT of course I got different results.
But my projections were the same as his using the data that he
used. So I’m not…I’m not differing from
the method he used in projecting his accidents but uh I think the data that was
used uh needs to be reviewed more carefully and using a different ADT out
there.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And sir do you
know whether or not the North Carolina Department of Transportation, in doing
it’s own safety reviews of highways, utilizes a modeling program that predicts
future fatalities?”
Thomas Hepler – “I do not know that they use a
modeling program. DOT does use
projections to project uh both traffic, as well as, accidents. I’m not aware that they are using a modeling
program but uh I cannot say one way or the other whether they do or not.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And sir you made a
comment in your traffic and safety analysis report, and specifically over in
paragraph three, that there are differences in the age um categories of drivers
in terms of what you referred to as a use factor chart, and how did that…how
did those differences affect Mr. Hummer’s report in your own study?”
Thomas Hepler – “There was a statement made in
Dr. Hummer’s report that the older driver is a more likely driver to have an
accident. Uh when looking at the table
that he provided, which was basically a use table, in his report, if you look
at that the older driver, I would consider the older driver from say retirement
age on forward, the retirement age driver beginning with retirement age driver,
according to his table or his chart, actually has a safer…much safer driving
record than a teenager and an equal driving record to someone between the age
of twenty and say thirty…uh I think it was twenty and uh…no it’s twenty four
and thirty-five years of age. So I don’t
think you can say that the older driver, based upon that chart, is a more
hazardous or is likely to have an accident.
Now when you take a driver that’s say eight-five plus that sort of goes
off the chart. There’s not too many
drivers out there at eighty-five, they still, an eighty-five plus driver, has a
lower accident rate according to that chart than a teenager. So I think it was…what I’m seeing in my
report is that the older driver is not necessarily a more hazardous person…or
more likely to have an accident. Um
depends on your definition of an older driver, I’ve been called an older driver
from time to time.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Sir based up your
review of this matter, your study of Dr. Hummer’s report and your review again
of the raw data in comparison of that to Dr. Hummer’s data, are you still of
the opinion stated previously to the Board that this project will not create
such traffic on Crab Creek Road as will significantly increase um the threat to
the public on that road?”
Thomas Hepler – “It is my opinion that this
project um it will create additional traffic, I cannot deny that but the type
of traffic that it will be creating compared with other developments that could
go in onto this place would be a much better traffic scenario from both an
accident, as well as, a volume standpoint.
Um based upon the capacity of the roadway, the roadway has plenty
capacity to carry any additional traffic that would be developed by this or be
brought…or created by this development.
Um and also the one thing I…I want to remind you of again is the…the uh
availability of alternate transportation that this developments going to be
providing to it’s residents and…which will reduce the vehicular traffic on the
roadway and also introduce a more safer means of transportation. The bus and van is much more-safer than
riding in an automobile.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Thank you, does
the Board have any questions?”
Chairman Moyer – “Any questions, Mr. Massagee.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Much, much shorter
question be…am I correct in saying that this project, if it’s approved, will
cause additional wrecks to occur on this road?
Would that not be a fair statement?”
Thomas Hepler – “I cannot say that this project
would cause additional wrecks on the roadway.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Do you…”
Thomas Hepler – “You can…anyone can predict and
anyone can project additional…additional uh…uh…uh accidents will occur on the
roadway. Uh any additional traffic out
there, on the roadway, on any roadway, not just this roadway, any roadway, if
you place this project on any particular roadway inside of Henderson County or
inside the state, um I mean it’s going to add traffic to the roadway. Uh if you build a house, you’re adding
traffic to the roadway. Uh so whenever
you increase the…whenever you increase the volume of traffic on a roadway
you’re increasing the likelihood of additional accidents, yes.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Would the answer to my
question then be yes?”
Thomas Hepler – “The answer to your question –
would you restate your question just again?”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Sure, would you not
agree that it is correct that this project, if approved, will result in the
likelihood of more accidents on this road, traffic accidents?”
Thomas Hepler – “It would…I would have to agree
that it would result in a likelihood of more accidents.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Thank you”
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Cherry”
John Cherry – “If you…if you use different data
on this study, shouldn’t you get different results? You said yours was different from the other
man. If you’re using different data, so
your results are going to be different, is that correct?”
Thomas Hepler – “The data that I am using is the
identical data that was provided by the DOT.”
John Cherry – “I’m…I’m talking comparing to our
witness, you said your result was different from his, but you said…you stated
that you used different data.”
Thomas Hepler – “I did not state I’d used
different data, I used…I stated I used a different base for ADT. The traffic accident data that I used was the
identical data that was used by Dr. Hummer.
The data was for a long…longer section, but I then I went back and used
his same section in my analysis for the uh…uh…the resist…the…the…the
information I presented here tonight.”
John Cherry – “So..you didn’t use the same stuff
that he used then?”
Thomas Hepler – “I used the same available stuff
that was presented by DOT. I used the
same stuff that was available to him by DOT.
The biggest difference was the ADT, the average daily traffic that was
assumed for the base.”
John Cherry – “So I guess either he can’t add and
subtract right or either you can’t add and subtract right.”
Thomas Hepler – “I’m not questioning…I’m not
questioning his ability to…as I stated earlier.
When I took his same…the same information that he used, I got the same
projections that he got so I’m not questioning his ability. I’m not saying that…that he’s…that he…that
it…that what he did was incorrect, uh but I had…I…I…I picked up some additional
information on the average daily traffic.”
John Cherry – “Did you uh ride this road? You said you did a study. Did you actually go out there and physically
ride up and down the road?”
Thomas Hepler – “I did”
John Cherry – “How many times?”
Thomas Hepler – “Twice”
John Cherry – “Twice, did you sit and watch the
traffic any?”
Thomas Hepler – “I observed the traffic for a
short period of time during the peak hour.”
John Cherry – “Like from side the road?”
Thomas Hepler – “Uh, well I don’t want to set in
the middle of the road.”
John Cherry – “Well did you…where did you
pull…where did you pull off and watch it at is what I’m asking?”
Thomas Hepler – “At Crab Creek…I mean at uh
John Cherry – “
Thomas Hepler – “It would depend upon…it would
depend upon the time of day that you’re stopping the traffic. Uh normally the waterline construction’s
going to go on and DOT has a set standard for creating basically a one lane,
two way operation using flagmen, which is normally employed for a waterline
construction like that or for construction on the shoulder of the roadway. That way you alternate the traffic and um
passage from the two directions, normally the traffic’s not stopped more than
one minute. Three minutes is a long time
if you’ve ever set at a three minute…”
John Cherry – “Well I’ve…I’ve set out there for
as many as five.”
Thomas Hepler – “The other thing is that the DOT
will normally specify a time of day in which they can actually set the flagmen
out there or operate under a flagman one lane operation and it will be during
the off-peak timeframe so it will not be allowed to be operated during the peak
hour which would be between seven and nine in the morning and between four and
six in the evening.”
John Cherry – “We’re…uh I think most of us are
more concerned…you’re talking the traffic after the thing is built…uh most of
us more concerned about the traffic during the construction. Have you done a study to try to figure how
much more traffic is going to be on the road during this construction and what
type of big heavy vehicles uh…dump trucks, concrete trucks, earth moving
equipment uh on trucks, all that stuff, we’re worried about uh more worried
about during the construction than some seventy year old person riding in a
van? They’re talking about five…their
wanting five years to build this thing so are we going to have to put up with
five years of bad traffic, have you done any study on the uh construction
traffic during this period of time?”
Thomas Hepler – “No sir I have not but I can
project that…or I can estimate that there will be an increase in traffic…will
be in construction traffic. Uh the…the
uh construction traffic will uh be entering this site through uh again through
a construction driveway which will also be set up by DOT…will be approved by
DOT…so it will have to be a safe access for them to enter that site. The construction traffic in all likelihood is
going to be occurring again during the off-peak hour and not during the peak
hour traffic.”
John Cherry – “Uh I don’t know how they’re going
to get out there and get the work done if they don’t come during early in the
morning, most…most construction people work from about sun up till sun
down. Uh how many…how many deaths as a
result of the Glen being built on the road would you consider to be
acceptable?”
Thomas Hepler – “Zero”
John Cherry – “Thank you”
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Knowlton”
Bill Knowlton – “Sir just a…just one question
for you, um I understand that there are other communities that are quiet
sizeable that are also being developed in this area which would have access to
uh Crab Creek and all likelihood would not only use it both to go to Brevard
and into town, did you compute that into uh your estimate?”
Thomas Hepler – “We utilized the approved
communities in the uh generation and projection of the traffic. We used the traffic growth rate that which is
standard by DOT’s measures on an annual basis and that is actually um is
compounded annually. So if you have a
three or four percent annual growth rate that three percent is added not just
each year it’s added one year and then this three percent on top of that again
so it’s like interest essentially so the effectiveness of say a three percent
growth rate over a time period of say eight years end of being a roughly a
fifty percent increase in traffic. So
this takes into account some of the…most of the additional growth but any
approved development we took into consideration that was out there and had not
gone into place yet. Now the
developments already there is on…in the place…it already has the traffic on the
road.”
Bill Knowlton –“Sure I understand that but I’m
talking about future uh growth on Evans or up in
Thomas Hepler – “We can only…we can only take
into account that development that has been approved that’s a sure thing.”
Bill Knowlton – “When considering Crab Creek um”
Thomas Hepler – “You said one question.”
Bill Knowlton – “Yes I know I’m getting in the
second one just for the heck of it. Uh
Crab Creek is a short cut from Brevard to
Thomas Hepler – “Actually Crab Creek Road, the
traffic on Crab Creek Road compared to the other roadways in that vicinity that
actually becomes…are considered as a more of a arterial roadways, and so I
would consider Crab Creek Road as an arterial.
All the other…it has the list amount of traffic of the other arterials
in that area. So although it may be
considered a shortcut uh there are other roadways that have a higher volume of
traffic on it by…based upon DOT’s traffic count there.”
Bill Knowlton – “Well yes based on that but I
would venture.”
Thomas Hepler – “Are you questioning…okay”
Bill Knowlton – “Oh I would question that one
hundred percent because I live on…”
Thomas Hepler – “So if you question the data
that we use then our study in invalid.”
Bill Knowlton – “No…I…I understand that…I’m not
faulting you.”
Thomas Hepler – “Okay”
Bill Knowlton – “Thank you very much.”
Chairman Moyer – “Thank you Mr. Knowlton. Thank you Mr. Hepler.”
Commissioner Williams – “I have…had a question.”
Chairman Moyer – “Oh I’m sorry wait a minute.”
Commissioner Williams – “Mr. Hepler, I was just
concerned…up here”
Thomas Hepler – “I’m sorry”
Chairman Moyer – “It’s echoing off of this
thing.”
Commissioner Williams- “Question that came
up…I’ve had a number of people to mention about the speed limit through that
area…Did your study take that into account at all about the speed limit and
what in your opinion do you think that they may contribute to the safety
factor?”
Thomas Hepler – “Well I think uh our study did
take that into consideration. If you
read the study our…the recommendation of our study was to drop the speed limit
to petition to DOT to drop the speed limit on the roadway. Um I believe the speed limit out there right
now is posted at fifty, if I’m not mistaken, but it drops to forty-five and
then…but we’re…our recommendation is too petition DOT to drop that speed limit
down. Most of the accidents that
occurred on this corridor were….well they were not necessarily exceeding the
posted speed limit of fifty in the…on the uh…uh to the south, but they were um
they were approaching that speed. They
were driving fifty or better in some cases. Um it would be our recommendation
or what is my recommendation in report that the roadway be….or a petition be
presented to DOT to post the roadway at a maximum of forty-five miles per hour
in this area. Of course it drops to
thirty-five as it gets back into town but in this area it needs to be, in our
opinion, forty-five.”
Commissioner Williams – “Thank you”
Chairman Moyer – “Any other questions from the
Board? Okay that includes the
presentation of all evidence, rebuttal evidence.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Moyer”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Mr. Chairman – Mr.
Chairman you had indicated that I could introduce just a documented item which
I’d do before you close it up.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Moyer as Mr.
Massagee has already questioned one of my witnesses about alleged facts
contained in that documentary item what I would ask the Commission is to let me
call on Jerry Grant for just about four or five questions about the facts
contained in that affidavit.”
Commissioner McGrady – “Mr. Chairman we’ve got
to take a recess here.
Chairman Moyer – “Yes”
Commissioner McGrady – “Um this is…unless we’re
going to put all the lawyers and all the witnesses and all the parties in the
same metal chair as I am sitting in, we’ve got to take a….”
Commissioner Williams – “That’s right”
Chairman Moyer – “What is the purpose of the
uh…”
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Massagee asked
one of my clients…one of my witnesses about whether they knew whether this
applicant had been sited by
Chairman Moyer – “Alright, well since
Commissioner McGrady can’t sit still any longer we will take a ten minute break
and we’ll have that short questioning and then we’ll go into closing
remarks. I think because of the nature
of the case we need to let the parties pull this all together and we’ll back
and do that.”
TEN
MINUTE BREAK
Chairman Moyer – “Okay we’re going to continue
the hearing. Mr. Massagee we’re going to
start with you and your rebuttal.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “We have an affidavit by
the Erosion Control Officer”
Chairman Moyer – “Please go to the mic so that
everybody can hear you, I’m sorry.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “We have a…an affidavit
by the Erosion Control Officer of Buncombe County relative to one of the Grant
uh projects and some of the deficiencies they’ve had. I would hand this to whomever I can hand it
to.”
Chairman Moyer – “Do you have copies for?”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “I had copies which
I’ve given to Mr. Alexander.”
Chairman Moyer – “And who has signed that?
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “The Erosion Control
Officer of
Chairman Moyer – “And he’s not here right now
right?”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “That’s correct he was
a witness that we had.”
Chairman Moyer – “Alright then I’ll let Mr.
Alexander put uh Mr. Grant back on to respond to this.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Jerry Grant
please, Mr. Grant are you familiar with a project referred to in Mr.
Brookshire’s affidavit that occurred in
Jerry Grant – “I am”
Attorney William Alexander – “And sir was that
in fact a project of Beverly Grant Incorporated?”
Jerry Grant – “It was not”
Attorney William Alexander – “Did Beverly Grant
Incorporated ever have a responsibility for any involvement in that project?”
Jerry Grant – “No sir”
Attorney William Alexander – “Were you
personally involved in that project?”
Jerry Grant – “I was involved as an investor.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And did you have
uh supervisory capacity over that?”
Jerry Grant – “I did not”
Attorney William Alexander – “And was there in
fact and assessment originally made against you by the
Jerry Grant – “There was”
Attorney William Alexander – “And was that
subsequently set aside?”
Jerry Grant – “It was”
Attorney William Alexander – “I have no further
questions.”
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Cherry do you have any
questions on that subject?”
John Cherry – “No”
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Knowlton”
Bill Knowlton – “No sir”
Chairman Moyer – “Okay, Mr. Massagee I saw you
rise do you have anything?”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “I have a
question. Mr. Grant, you were an
investor in this project,
Jerry Grant – “I was”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Are you and…and
investor in the present project here that we have?”
Jerry Grant – “I am”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “And you were the
original applicant in this were you not?”
Jerry Grant – “I made the application to
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Now then uh you said
the $29,225.00 assessment was…was…was…was waived, you didn’t pay anything?”
Jerry Grant – “No sir”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “You paid nothing?”
Jerry Grant – “I could not”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Nothing was paid
toward this?”
Jerry Grant – “Not by me”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Who paid what about
this sir?”
Jerry Grant – “Mr. Massagee it’s been some time
but I believe the entire amount was set aside.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “You did not pay
$10,000.00 was not paid on this?”
Jerry Grant – “Well if you know that then, then
perhaps uh there was an amount paid, but it would have been paid by the entity
who owned the property.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Do you get enough of
fines so that you don’t fines when they come by?”
Jerry Grant – “Uh Mr. Massagee that’s the only
fine I recollect that I’ve ever had.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “And did you have uh
according to this thing here the project that you were invested in and that you
were…made the application for 167 days out of a year you had uh, uh penalties?”
Jerry Grant – “Uh that’s what that says thats
correct.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – It says you…you were
first notified on November third…thirteenth nineteen ninety eight of violations
and you hadn’t cured them and over a year later when they fined you?”
Jerry Grant – “Um I’m not privy to that…”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “What took so long to
fix it?”
Jerry Grant – “Uh Mr. Massagee you’ve asked the
question, I’ll answer it. That project was
originally a spec building for Progress Energy.
They came to the Chamber of Commerce of Asheville and asked them to do a
spec building. Asheville Chamber of
Commerce came to me and to Mr. Slosman and asked us if we would participate and
we agreed to participate because Mr. Slosman knew of another gentleman Mr.
Donald Dickson who wanted a building so that we could two buildings on the
site. Mr. Dickson subsequently had some
business turnarounds and could not build his building. Uh Progress Energy decided because they had a
change in management that they were no longer interested in the spec building
program. Um the Chamber of Commerce had
worked with us to get the state to put the roads in and the county to put the
water and the sewer in. Uh the county
was the only one that ever came through with the water and sewer. We graded the property and the property had
to sit there while we waited for the state to pave the roads. Well that happened at a time when DOT was
having some problems if you may remember that timeframe. The DOT was not able through it’s agent that
it was going to use to pave the roads.
So the roads were unpaved because Mr. Slosman and I neither one wanted
to invest anymore money in the site and that’s why the thing went on so long.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “So if this project is
such that you decide you don’t want to put anymore money in the project, it’s
just going to sit there and…and the erosion control measures are not going to
be taken. Would that be a reasonable
conclusion?”
Jerry Grant – “No it would not”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “I have nothing else,
thank you”
Chairman Moyer – “Thank you. We’ll move now into the closing remarks. As I indicated these are at the option of the
Board to give the parties the chance to pull everything together and make their
final comments. We are going to have
closing remarks but I asked that the parties limit their closing remarks to ten
minutes and uh we’ll start with the petitioner Mr. Alexander.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Mr. Moyer we would
ask that the Board would allow us to go last we’d waive opening reserve closing
please?”
Chairman Moyer – “No I’m going to ask you to go
first.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Alright in that
event Mr. Moyer we will…first I’d like to hand out uh before we close our
evidence some copies of exhibits previously received only for your record.”
Chairman Moyer – “Okay”
Attorney William Alexander – “On a procedural
matter before we start closing I would like to call the courts…I mean to the
Commissions attention that we filed a supplement to our application uh with
your office on May 21 of 2007. We did
that by filing it with your office specifically and with the office of the…of
the Planning Office and I have not heard reference in the Planning um Director
or Mr. Cable’s testimony of their exhibits as to that being included in the
record. I just want to be sure that
that’s within our application and what everybody understands we’re you know
applying for. They can confirm that for
me.”
Chairman Moyer – “Matt was that included in what
was…”
Matt Cable – I believe that they entered that at
the May 22 hearing themselves. I
received a copy at that time during the hearing. That was my…”
Attorney William Alexander – “As long as it’s in
the record, I just want to be sure.”
Chairman Moyer – “Alright we’ll deem it admitted
at that time.”
Attorney William Alexander – “And then I have a
couple of other little things which I’ll refer to in my closing. I would surrender the podium to my co-council
Angela Beeker for her uh closing comments and I will follow her with mine.”
Attorney Angela Beeker – “Before I begin um I
just want to, for the record, make sure that uh the Comprehensive Plan Land
Development Code are recognized as part of the record. I believe everybody has been referring to
them and I’m going to refer to them in my closing.”
Chairman Moyer – “So noted”
Attorney Angela Beeker – “And also um this is a
vision plan for um Advantage West for economic development and I wanted to
submit that into evidence as well. It
goes to the economic development element of the Comprehensive Plan Use Plan.”
Chairman Moyer – “Alright”
Attorney Angela Beeker – “I want to address just
a couple of things and I will be brief so that Mr. Alexander has most of the
time. Um it has been brought up about um
tax ability of these types of facilities and I wanted to hand out some statutes
to you on that issue. Just very briefly
the North Carolina General Statutes provide that um all property in the county
is subject to taxes unless the statutes provide a specific exclusion and this
is summarized on the cover but I have attached the relevant statutes for
you. There’s no automatic
exemption. You have to apply for
it. So no matter what…I have other
clients who I had to go back and uh fight for an exemption because believe me
it’s not automatic and I’ve provided that statute for you. Regarding a Continuing Care Retirement
Community, there are only two ways that I’ve been able to find in the statutes;
and I talked to Mr. Duncan to confirm this today, that they could become tax
exempt and that is if they were charitable or if they financed all or part of
the project through Medical Care Commission Bonds. As to the first, it is possible to convert to
a non-profit. Um I believe the um
attorney that spoke before did indicate that that was a possibility. But we are willing to self limit ourselves
and our articles of organization so that that could not happen. In addition before that could happen it also
has to go through the IRS through a very argues process before such a
conversion could occur. The second point
is if they merged with a non-profit the statutes do provide that it is possible
but only after a superior court hearing in which the attorney general is
invited to participate because the state is very protective of its
non-profits. Um so that I offer that for
your additional information because there’s not been anything offered on
that. I want to talk briefly about the
Comprehensive Land Use Plan. I still call
it the Comprehensive Land Use Plan, it’s the 2020 County Comprehensive Plan and
there have been statements made that say that this project is not in accordance
with the Comprehensive Plan and I believe that you have to look at the
Comprehensive Plan from corner to corner.
The Comprehensive Plan consists of more than just that Land Use Plan
map. When you look at the Land Use Plan
map it divides the county into the Urban Services Area, the Rural Transition
Area and the Rural Agriculture Area.
This tract of land is split. Matt
said it tonight, um it is part in the RTA and part in the RAA but I’ve always
understood that those are very generalized boundaries that they are not
surveyed lines out there and the entirety of this project could just as well be
in the RTA as it is in the RAA. The RTA
does contemplate that um public water and sewer may be available in the future
to this site and in fact this site is within the Mud Creek service area um
pursuant to that agreement with the City of Hendersonville, so it is not out of
the question that um in the next twenty years public water and sewer could be
to that site and I would argue that the Comprehensive Plan even contemplates
that. With regards to the Comprehensive
Plan, it has an economic development element; you’ve heard testimony already
about how this is going to contribute to the economy by providing a substantial
tax base and a substantial amount of jobs to be created. With regard to the natural resources element,
the majority of the property is less than 25% slope; those that are in excess
are proposed for the low dense development, the Highlands that has been said
tonight has already been approved um under the subdivision ordinance. With regard to the housing element, and I’m
going to slow down a little bit through here, um the Comprehensive Plan
recognizes that an important percentage of the county’s immigration can be
attributed to older adults who make up a relatively large percentage of
Henderson County’s population. In short
this plan says we need these types of facilities. That’s why I mean you have to read the plan
from cover to cover you can’t just focus on the map. At the end of the housing element, and I am
on page 8 of what I handed you, um the housing element of the CCP recommends
that the county ordinances be revised to allow the private sector to develop a
broad range of housing choices by ensuring that future regulations do not
unnecessarily impede the development of nursing homes and other types of care
facilities. It goes on to repeat that statement
in the growth management element also as one of the action steps. That statement is in there several
times. Um we believe that the project
would be allowed under the R3; you heard Matt testify that Continuing Care
Retirement Facilities are allowed. My
closing argument that I have presented to you states and provides a basis for
the conclusion that multi-family living units are part and parcel of a
Continuing Care Retirement Facility just like they are part of an Assisted
Living Facility. You cannot have one
without the other. The applicant must do
an actuarial study to satisfy the licensing board that this project will work
and from an economic standpoint it will not work without those independent
living units. As well I handed out a
retirement uh Department of Insurance Retirement guide, I don’t have it…I’ve
got it in my box, I could dig it out but you remember it has the nice colored
picture of a…of a man fishing in a pond and what it provides is a summary of
all the Continuing Care Retirement Communities in the state. Every single one of those facilities has
multi-unit…I’m sorry multi-family units associated with it; independent living
units; every single one of them, so if you’ll allow a CCRC you are allowing
those in an R3 district. Um let’s see…I
will…I will stop um there except to say, I do have one more thing and that is
the definition of a Continuing Care Retirement Community. If I could hand this out, the first page that
I have for you is the definition of a Continuing Care Retirement Community that
is in the Land Development Code. It is
the identical definition to the states definition of the Continuing Care
Retirement Community in the North Carolina General Statute. It says a Continuing Care Retirement
Community involves the furnishing to an individual other than their relative of
lodging together with nursing services, medical services or other health
related services; lodging, nursing services, medical services or other health
related services. The last page of what
I handed you is the North Carolina Administrative Codes definition of
lodging. Lodging means independent
living without the need or use of health related services. Again, lodging means independent living
without the need or use of health related services. So therefore if you don’t have a definition
for lodging in the county zoning ordinance you would look to the states
definition and use of that term since the code mimics the state statutory
definition. So it is our position that
if you look at the four corners of the Comprehensive Land Use Plan and you look
at the Land Development Code and the proposed R3 that both would support this
project. Thank You.”
Chairman Moyer – “Thank you Mrs. Beeker.”
Attorney William Alexander – “Members of the
Commission thank you for this opportunity to present the case of the applicant
for approval of a site specific development plan in accord with North Carolina
General Statute 153A 344.1. I appreciate
your attention to the evidence throughout this proceeding. It has been long and hard for all of us. You have received confident evidence in
support of this project and a mixture of opinions from various individuals both
for and against the project. It’s my
purpose now to summarize and conclude my client’s position to the degree that
my co-council Mrs. Beeker has not already addressed the issue. I’ve been a little shocked throughout this
proceeding to hear so many really vociferously stated opinions about this
project. From the vehement nature of the
opinions you would think we were trying to get approval for a race track or a
land fill or a quarry. What we have
here instead is a community of people all through this proceeding and I know
this sounds in this late hour a little silly but all through this proceeding
you’ve heard talk about trees, trees, trees, views, everything. I want to remind the Commission that human
beings, the citizens in
Chairman Moyer – “Alright”
Attorney William Alexander – “We would submit to
you that this matter needs to be brought to a vote. We ask you to vote in favor of approving our
site specific development plan as submitted.
We ask you to impose such of the conditions as you find to be
reasonable. The conditions proposed by
staff; there was a parking condition of one space per five hundred square feet
of commercial space. We think that the
square footage space should be more specifically defined. In any event; there’s one or two minor
modifications to planning staff which could be worked through with them, I
think aside from your principle decision.
Um Beverly Grant and the folks at Beverly Grant are responsible
businessmen, great contractors and will comply with the things that you
impose. We’re not out there to fill the
county with sewer. We want to build a
facility that we can sell and benefit them, benefit the residents of the county
and do it in a way that exemplifies the way people should behave rather than
the types of behavior that Mr. Massagee has characterized us as having. Thank you very much.”
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Massagee that was about
twenty minutes, I’m going to give you the same privilege as the other parties
if you’d like.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Mr. Chairman I will
not take it. I’m sure that will probably
brighten your day.”
Chairman Moyer – “Shorten the night anyway.”
Attorney Boyd Massagee – “Shorten your
night. Look at the number of projects
that you know of that the Beverly Grant Company has been involved with. It would be interesting to know how many of
them they now own and operate. They’re a
construction company. I think it is
unrealistic for anybody to think that when this project is finished and gone that
they’re not going to sell it to somebody who comes along and wants to buy
it. That’s what they do for…that’s what
their business is. Now there is no
contract that can be made and…and you guys are…like me learned this the first
year in law school. You cannot contract
away the right to convey real estate in the future. So a contract of that affect that they
offered the first night is totally worthless.
The person that they sell to are the entity that they sell to, whether
it’s Parkridge or whoever it happens to be, if they qualify under the statute
as tax exempt they will be entitled by federal law to the tax exemption. They’ll be entitled under the
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Cherry”
John Cherry – “If you’ll uh sometime before you
make a decision, go and uh look on there, they’ve got a website and uh bring up
the Glen at Flat Rock and look at their uh picture there…the picture on their
website I’m sure is an artists drawing but it is quite a bit different from
what they have showed you here. Uh
they…the picture they presented us here is a little small development. Well if you’ll look at that picture on that
website it is huge. It looks like maybe
four or five, five story buildings. I’m
sure my opinion of this, if we give them five years to do it, we’re
just…this…what they’ve presented is just a tip of the iceberg. They’re….they’re not planning on quitting
where they…where they’re at. They’re
planning on adding and expanding. Uh the
first…first night I…I was kind of puzzled uh all the dealings I’ve had with the
county, if I go down and take a permit out in John Jones or John Cherry or
whatever uh and I go back and I want to put Henry Cherry on it, then I’ve got
to file a new deal and…and I don’t…I don’t get to change it. Uh the very first night uh they wanted to
amend…amend then and I think you’ll let them do it the…but they wanted
Parkridge uh MOB on the application also.
Uh I don’t know whether…what that’s got to do with the tax exempt or
whatever. Also the very first night um
I…I’ve learnt a lot about the uh about the rules of this thing uh. The first night I asked two questions or
walked up here and asked a question and went back and sit down, uh didn’t
really know what was going on. Later I
found out that I could’ve stayed up here.
Uh the one question I asked, I asked about the…about the traffic, this
is preliminary way back when the first night and uh they, I was told that uh
by…by one of their witnesses, uh traffic be no problem because their…their
people were going to be on twenty-four hour shifts. I find that hard to believe that everybody in
that nursing home and all their people are going to work a twenty-four hour
shift, I don’t…the only people that I know that do that are firemen and they
sleep at night when their not…when their not working. Uh they proposed to build a sewer treatment
plant uh, I built my house out there, I like my house but had I known that that
Glen was over there and that sewer treatment plant and all were there and I’m
that close to it I don’t think I would have bought out there. Uh you can go into any town anywhere and find
sewer treatment plant but usually you don’t find any houses around it. It’s stuck off in some back…back place uh no
one chooses. Say well let’s see…I think
that land will be cheaper over there beside the sewer treatment plant so that’s
where I’m going to go build my house and my kids can go over there and play and
smell whatever they smell. Uh Mr. uh
lawyer I forgot what his name, Alexandria or whatever, uh he mentioned about
the people that uh people at Bat Cave uh would be glad to be this close to the
hospital, uh they probably would but uh I don’t think no body was stupid enough
to go out there and put a eighty bed nursing home in Bat Cave with no facilities
and no water or anything. And last uh…I
feel like, you know, if…if…if this thing was for the poor or not poor but just
the ordinary citizen or whatever uh I think people might be a little more
receptive to it. But this…this is….this
is maybe I don’t know you fellows and know…know your financial status but uh
for most of us in this room uh we couldn’t…we couldn’t go stay in this
place. Uh it’s going to be extremely
expensive. It’s for the…for the wealthy
of the wealthy and it is for people that say well I’ve got the money I like
that out there so I’m going to go buy it.
Uh I hope you don’t let them go buy our peaceful valley uh and we
don’t…right now as I said before, we don’t have any smells out there. They’ve compared this to the uh to the to the
Blue Ridge…every time they’ve made a comparison, they’ve not compared apples to
apples, not, not to Blue Ridge but Blue Star, uh this…the water treatment plant
there, I can’t imagine…I don’t even know why they’ve got one…I can’t imagine uh
those kids uh I guess they go to the bathroom uh they may wash their clothes
once a week uh there’s not kind of volume of water coming out of that place
going into Crab Creek that is going to be coming out of this uh hospital. Uh nurses and people uh…uh working in a hospital
are required to was their hands every time they go in a room so uh anyway
the…um just uh think about it and think about…think about us poor people out
there that will have to put up with this.
Not to think about the five years of traffic and not being able to get
to town. Uh I’ve also heard that they
wanted to put uh…run a gas line out there.
So if they run a gas line and run a water line,
Chairman Moyer – “Mr. Knowlton you’re up next,
I’d ask you to wait just a minute.
Commissioner Messer had to take care of something so just wait till Mr.
Messer comes back to start your comments please. You can make your closing remarks now.”
Bill Knowlton – “Well I guess I uh I wasn’t
really aware that I’d have to make closing remarks but I’ll make one, I’ll try
to put it together.”
Chairman Moyer – “You do not have to, I’m giving
you the option if you’d like.”
Bill Knowlton – “Oh okay. Well out of spite I’m just going to do
it. Alright sir well first of all, you
know, it was mentioned that that these elderly folks uh need a pastoral
atmosphere in which to spend the rest of their remaining time and uh I agree
whole heartedly. I agree that we need uh
a CCR here, not in this location, but that’s necessary there’s no doubt about
it. But I happen to be an elderly person
too and I’d like to live in a pastoral atmosphere and when they turn around and
put in two five story buildings, a four story building, a health care center
for 42,000 square foot and all this parking area and all these homes and the
like, where do my pastoral atmosphere go to?
And of course the folks that are living there what kind of pastoral
atmosphere do they have? That’s
bologna. Truth is we are uh I guess a
little obstinate but we’re sitting here and we’re…we’re…we’re tax payers. We’re residents, we live here they
don’t. They want to come in. I don’t care about them coming, I don’t care
about the CCR it should be in a place that they have uh they have
infrastructure to support it. Once that
water line runs out and even gas line, Crab Creek is going to be a good place
for development because now they have city water and if this is just the
beginning of a…of a high density development there’s going to be another and
another and another. That’s not fair to
us. It really isn’t. I know what they want to do but everything
that you’ve heard up here has been smoke and mirrors. Oh this is what we can do. Do they have a contract on it? Is this the way their going to put in the
sewer plant? We don’t know. Is this the way their going to uh take care
of erosion? We don’t know. There’s no contract on it but if I get the
contract this is the way I could do it.
I don’t think that’s a way of doing business. It’s like damning apple pit and motherhood if
you say that nursing homes and assisted living is not….not a good thing to
do. So I’m not going to do that. But I will tell you that if you have to move
two hundred and forty people out of uh a area that’s in danger by fire or
whatever I don’t care if you have a sprinkler system or like and they are partially
infirmed, I’ve moved them, and I will tell you, you can’t. To try to do it in an hour, yes I did it in
an hour and I went in with a battalion of people, three companies to move them. And, as far as, the fire department I applaud
what they do but I will tell you when he shows up with one truck and one person
that’s not a reaction time. When they
show up with three trucks and three people that’s not a reaction time and I
would not want to be in a burning building saying, looking down at the three
folks saying well we’re calling it and we’re coordinating it. What I want to know is when is it operational
and when can they fight the fire and that’s probably in the neighborhood of
about forty-five minutes? Not three
minutes, not four minutes because it’s a volunteer organization and we know
this. And I think that battalion chief
shot himself in the foot when he said he doesn’t need any additional equipment
because he sure as the devil does. We’re
counting on you to help us. We’ve got no
place else to go. If they come in and my
water…and…and my well goes dry, all our wells go dry, we’re shot and I think
this is a foretaste of the development of the Crab Creek valley. So I really ask you please consider it. Look at the health and welfare of those that
are already here and then drive
Chairman Moyer – “I’d call on Mr. Erb but I
think he is not here, has not arrived and the same thing with Ms. McDowell. It would not be appropriate to have a motion
to go out of public hearing.”
Commissioner Messer – “So moved Mr. Chairman.”
Chairman Moyer – “All in favor say I.”
In unison – “I”
Chairman Moyer – “Opposed”
None
Chairman Moyer stated that the Board was now out
of public hearing. Now that the
Commissioners had heard the evidence and closing remarks concluded it was an
appropriate time for the Commissioners to discuss the issues presented over the
several hearing held. The Board would
make determinations regarding finding of fact and conclusions of law by a
majority vote. The Board may delegate to
staff the drafting of proposed findings and conclusions subject to a vote by
the Board. The Board’s final decision
shall be in writing and provided to all parties who have indicated to the clerk
that they wish to receive a copy of the decision. The Board must decide according to both North
Carolina General Statutes and to Chapter of the Henderson County Code whether
to approve the site specific development plan.
The Board may approve a site specific development plan or a phase
development plan on such terms and conditions as may be reasonably necessary to
protect the public health, safety and welfare.
The public hearing having been closed at this time the order must be
entered by this Board within thirty (30) days of today, which is the close of
the hearing.
Commissioner Messer expressed that this had been
an ongoing hearing. He was ready to
review some of the closing statements and come back at a meeting in August and
make the decision.
Commissioner Young was in agreement with
Commissioner Messer.
Chairman Moyer pointed out that they had
received a lot of documents and a lot of additional information at this
meeting. The thirty (30) days would be
August 23, 2007.
It was the consensus of the Board to take due
diligence to the documents received and testimony received and discuss it and
place it on the agenda for the next Board Meeting.
Commissioner McGrady suggested that two sets of
orders be prepared, one denying the application and one agreeing to it with a
clear range of stipulations or limitations.
Chairman Moyer recommended that staff or the
ADJOURN
Commissioner
Williams made the motion for the Board to adjourn at 9:45 p.m. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Attest:
Terry Wilson, Deputy Clerk to the Board William L. Moyer, Chairman